WotC Wizard's Future Plans Has 3 Big Problems: Ft. The Professor of Tolarion Community College

[Hussar]

Quality is in the eye of the beholder, so saying quality has declined unless there's obvious things like poor editing is really "They don't happen to be publishing things I want."

There is a fair dollop of this. People very often tend to conflate their personal taste with quality.

both those points are fair but not all are skilled in the latter and sometimes new rules are needed, take spelljammer it need far more ship rules for the basic set of things you can do and basic guidance for any of the most common ideas beyond those.

not to say I want a new rule for everything but sometimes you want to do something properly and an expansion is the only way to do it.

OTOH, I went very much the other way for Spelljammer. My players have zero interest in ship to ship combat. And, over the years, I've found that players almost never do. At least in my experience. They want to play their characters and ship to ship combat means you get to spend a fair chunk of time not actually doing that. So, I simply leaned into it. All effects cannot pass outside of gravity planes. No attacks, no spells, nothing. So, all ship to ship combat is boarding actions because you can't really affect the other ship until such time as your gravity planes intersect.

So, extensive ship combat rules would be of no use to me. I HAVE extensive ship to ship combat rules. Several versions for multiple editions. From very rules light to three steps away from Star Fleet Battles. And, every time I've tried to use any of them, the players have completely turned up their noses.

And therein lies the rub. How is WotC supposed to write supplements that make both of us happy?

 

[Stormonu]

3 create better npcs. People have a fondness for minsc/boo plus drizzt. Who are the modern npcs . Who are the modern villains. We have strahd and soth. 2 villains from my childhood. Where’s your Thanos WOTC. Where’s your fresh big bad that takes your party on a great ride

Acerak? Vecna? Kinsaldi Fire Eyes? Auril? Zariel? Mad Maggie? Granny Nightshade?

There's plenty of D&D "big" bad guys in 5E.

 

[Maxperson]

In December, Barnes & Noble had a 50% off sale for all games and hardback books and that included the new Spelljammer. For half off, I was going to take the plunge until I learned it wasn't much of a setting. Very disappointing.

I went and bought 5 board games during that sale! I had gift cards from Christmas, so I had a few hundred in free money to use. It was great! There were no D&D books for me, though, since I tend to buy what I want as it comes out.

 

[Alzrius]

Edit - consider that there are more than 30 (!!!) TSR publications for Dark Sun, alone, as opposed to 3 from WotC, all for 4e, and all three essentially using the basic 4e rules:

List of Dark Sun modules and sourcebooks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not for nothing, but there were thirty-one commercial Forgotten Realms game products released by WotC between 2000 and 2008 for 3.X (counting the standalone DM's screen they released, as well as products without the standard FR branding, such as Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, The Grand History of the Realms, and Expedition to the Ruins of Undermountain). Whereas Dark Sun, not counting the Dark Sun Conspectus (which was given away for free), had a grand total of thirty-two game products during its 2E run.

 

[Alzrius]

As someone who owns the complete Arthaus Ravenloft, I was underwhelmed by the 2021 version.

I remember being excited for Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft when I first heard about it, because I thought it was going to continue the timeline of what Arthaus had laid out. Specifically, I had just gotten a copy of Legacy of the Blood: Great Families of the Core, and was very excited by how the authors had been carefully putting forward successors for the mortal darklords who were nearing the end of their lifespans, and wanted to see that idea developed further.

That was just one of the many, many reasons I was disappointed with what VRGtR turned out to be.

 

[SkidAce]

There is a fair dollop of this. People very often tend to conflate their personal taste with quality.


OTOH, I went very much the other way for Spelljammer. My players have zero interest in ship to ship combat. And, over the years, I've found that players almost never do. At least in my experience. They want to play their characters and ship to ship combat means you get to spend a fair chunk of time not actually doing that. So, I simply leaned into it. All effects cannot pass outside of gravity planes. No attacks, no spells, nothing. So, all ship to ship combat is boarding actions because you can't really affect the other ship until such time as your gravity planes intersect.

So, extensive ship combat rules would be of no use to me. I HAVE extensive ship to ship combat rules. Several versions for multiple editions. From very rules light to three steps away from Star Fleet Battles. And, every time I've tried to use any of them, the players have completely turned up their noses.

And therein lies the rub. How is WotC supposed to write supplements that make both of us happy?

Quoted in honor of Star Fleet Battles.
Top of the list with Champions of "Favorite Games We Don't Play Anymore"

 

[Alzrius]

There is a fair dollop of this. People very often tend to conflate their personal taste with quality.


OTOH, I went very much the other way for Spelljammer. My players have zero interest in ship to ship combat. And, over the years, I've found that players almost never do. At least in my experience. They want to play their characters and ship to ship combat means you get to spend a fair chunk of time not actually doing that. So, I simply leaned into it. All effects cannot pass outside of gravity planes. No attacks, no spells, nothing. So, all ship to ship combat is boarding actions because you can't really affect the other ship until such time as your gravity planes intersect.

So, extensive ship combat rules would be of no use to me. I HAVE extensive ship to ship combat rules. Several versions for multiple editions. From very rules light to three steps away from Star Fleet Battles. And, every time I've tried to use any of them, the players have completely turned up their noses.

And therein lies the rub. How is WotC supposed to write supplements that make both of us happy?

I feel confident in saying that there's a happy medium to be had here; I don't know what "extensive" would be in the context of ship-to-ship combat rules (and I'm not sure I buy the premise that such rules necessarily means your characters have nothing to do), but there's surely a way to present something in that regard to the point where it would satisfy many, or even most, of the people who want it without being so expansive that it would be a deal-breaker for the people who like Spelljammer but don't want anything like that. It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition.

 

[wicked cool]

Acerak? Vecna? Kinsaldi Fire Eyes? Auril? Zariel? Mad Maggie? Granny Nightshade?

There's plenty of D&D "big" ba as far as I know appears in critical role

Acerak? Vecna? Kinsaldi Fire Eyes? Auril? Zariel? Mad Maggie? Granny Nightshade?

There's plenty of D&D "big" bad guys in 5E.

Well vecna appeared only in 1990 or critical role.most modern players have not encountered vecna
The rest for the most part are not central villians and several of those do not rise to the levels of the 2 mentioned. One is in an adventure geared towards a young audience.
Now an adventure around stopping vecna sounds promising! I bet most younger players know vecna and demogorgon from stranger things only

There’s a reason why soth is featured on the alternate cover. He’s basically darth Vader in d&d

WOtc take your best assets and make an adventure with vecna. Throw in a beholder encounter that could be a tpk. Throw more adversaries that are truly memorable encounters throughout the adventure like strahd is. Rime had that potential but it’s not as fluid as strahd or even phandelver

 

[Hussar]

I feel confident in saying that there's a happy medium to be had here; I don't know what "extensive" would be in the context of ship-to-ship combat rules (and I'm not sure I buy the premise that such rules necessarily means your characters have nothing to do), but there's surely a way to present something in that regard to the point where it would satisfy many, or even most, of the people who want it without being so expansive that it would be a deal-breaker for the people who like Spelljammer but don't want anything like that. It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition.

Not nothing to do.

Nothing to do that requires my character. You don’t need my character to man the ballista. If I wanted to be an artillerist I’d make that. But my sword and board fighter is now making one attack per round with a ballista. Meanwhile the wizard, who would much rather be casting spells, has to drive the ship because he’s the one tied to the helm. The rogue is now not doing anything rogue like but is dealing with crew stuff. So on and so forth.

Like I said, I’ve tried a LOT of systems with different groups and no one wants them. Again IME.

I honestly think ship to ship combat systems are for dms and not players.

 

[Parmandur]

I feel confident in saying that there's a happy medium to be had here; I don't know what "extensive" would be in the context of ship-to-ship combat rules (and I'm not sure I buy the premise that such rules necessarily means your characters have nothing to do), but there's surely a way to present something in that regard to the point where it would satisfy many, or even most, of the people who want it without being so expansive that it would be a deal-breaker for the people who like Spelljammer but don't want anything like that. It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition.

Spelljammer has ship combat rules: some might argue that they are the happy medium.

 

[Hussar]

Not to derail this thread too much into Spelljammer territory, but, I'm finding that the 5e SJ book isn't all that bad. Yup, it's seriously short on lore. This is a module with a gazetteer, not a setting guide. And, yup, I totally agree it could probably use a bit more meat on the bone. Another thirty or forty pages would not go amiss.

But, that being said, what is there, isn't all that bad.

 

[M_Natas]

Not nothing to do.

Nothing to do that requires my character. You don’t need my character to man the ballista. If I wanted to be an artillerist I’d make that. But my sword and board fighter is now making one attack per round with a ballista. Meanwhile the wizard, who would much rather be casting spells, has to drive the ship because he’s the one tied to the helm. The rogue is now not doing anything rogue like but is dealing with crew stuff. So on and so forth.

Like I said, I’ve tried a LOT of systems with different groups and no one wants them. Again IME.

I honestly think ship to ship combat systems are for dms and not players.

Yeah, when I read all the Homebrew/DMsGuild 5e Ship to Ship Combat Systems for Spelljammer when I created my own, I was like ... really?
Most go with fixed Crew rules that gets some extra mechanics that only this specific Crew role can do (motivation Crew, heal Crew, man ballidtaes ...) and that all seemed just bad.
Like a mechanics first approach.
But the spelljammer rules as Written in 5e are equally bad, because if you usw them, the characters will only be able to use the ballista for 10+ rounds straight (or 100+ rounds more if it is a chase).

So I made a rules light version, we're all characters just get more options to do during a ship to ship fight, like give commands to crew, repair the ship. I also added turning rules for the ships, so Ship Combat gets faster (because turning reduces your speed so ships can catch up faster if one ship tries to go away), a bad luck table with special damage that gives bad affects to the ship, and the option to use spellslots to make the ship faster. I also added some upgrade options for the ships, so the speed differences between the ships get greater and ships can move quicker into close quarter fights or get away faster (because with the raw fixed ship speeds chasing would take forever).

Also Ships get penalties to speed and air capacity at 3/4, 1/2 and 1/2 of their HP, so catching up gets even faster.

By RAW the Spelljammer Combat Rules are the worst, because they make all the ships to similiar and to slow so that starting an engagement at 1000 feet will just take forever, because also Ship damage by ballista is just negligible and has no effects until the ship is destroyed.

 

[M_Natas]

Spelljammer has ship combat rules: some might argue that they are the happy medium.

The problem is, if you start a Combat a 1000 feet, the "ship combat" RAW just consists of 10 rounds of flying at each other firing batistas, if they fly at each other at max speed. If one ship tries to fly away it would take like a 100 rounds for the other ship to catch up (if it is even faster) and like 400 rounds to make enough damage with ballista to destroy it.

By RAW Shipcombat is only then not completely boring in spelljammer 5e when you start the engagement at 250 feet or closer and don't have one of the ships trying to run away.

 

[M_Natas]

Not to derail this thread too much into Spelljammer territory, but, I'm finding that the 5e SJ book isn't all that bad. Yup, it's seriously short on lore. This is a module with a gazetteer, not a setting guide. And, yup, I totally agree it could probably use a bit more meat on the bone. Another thirty or forty pages would not go amiss.

But, that being said, what is there, isn't all that bad.

Funnily, my own spelljammer expanded rules (that I would have expected to be already included in the boxed set) are exactly 50 pages. And those 50 pages should have been part of the boxed set.

 

[teitan]

both those points are fair but not all are skilled in the latter and sometimes new rules are needed, take spelljammer it need far more ship rules for the basic set of things you can do and basic guidance for any of the most common ideas beyond those.

not to say I want a new rule for everything but sometimes you want to do something properly and an expansion is the only way to do it.

Also a fair point, that was a dropped ball if there ever was one but one could import and modify an existing system from another game pretty easily but you're 100% right. Not everyone is inclined or has the skill for it yet.

 

[teitan]

But they seem to publish stuff I don't need as a DM.
Like ... from all the Books that are coming out now, I maybe need the Book of Many Things. The rest? I figured out, I don't need and use Adventures and Adventure anthologies, as a DM and as a player. I homebrew my worlds. What I need are more rules/options and lore, I can steal. I read trough van Richtens Guide, Tashas, Xanatahrs and Spelljammer ...
I stopped reading Rime of the Forstmaiden, Strixhaven after the initial Characteroptions and Setting, Avernus the Library Anthology... because first: They are not fun to just read. Second, I have no intention to run them and they also feel like to much homework if I want to run them.
I'm a homebrewer. I make my campaign and worlds from scratch and WotC is not giving me more tools for that than are in the DMG.
Like, Spelljammer, why are there no planetary creation charts? Why is their no world building advice?
No more sample systems outside of the two in the adventure?
How the f do I run classes in Strixhaven? Why are there no rules for that, that I can use for my own magical school setting?
It seems, that WotC has decided to not support Homebrewing DMs. And I guess the reason why that is, is money.
DMs that Homebrew don't buy adventures. So they don't put support for that in, so that new DMs are disincentivized to create their own adventures and keeping buying the adventures put out by WotC.
That's why spelljammer is bad for DMs who want to make their own Spelljammercampaigns and not just run yhe preprinted adventure. That's why there are not a lot of Rules Expansion that can be used in homebrewed adventures. That's why there is always a lot of player facing options, but except for Monsters and Magic Items rarely any DM facing options.

I think Spelljammer was kind of a quick project put together in a shorter timeframe than normal. So they didn't get a lot of rules development lead and they couldn't publicly playtest it without revealing what they were doing. The scant material, that it's mostly an adventure and some monsters and races. It just feels very rushed. Almost like it was meant to be an adventure and they decided to make it a setting because the adventure needed SOME explanatory material like rules and they wanted to test that awful format so most of the adventure became free material.

 

[teitan]

Acerak? Vecna? Kinsaldi Fire Eyes? Auril? Zariel? Mad Maggie? Granny Nightshade?

There's plenty of D&D "big" bad guys in 5E.

They haven't used Vecna yet and Acererak? ehhh. They could have done an epic Vecna campaign, it would have sold like hot cakes. Done an undead sourcebook just before it. Vecna's Libram of The Dead or something and then the adventure and just knocked it out of the park and instead we are getting... Phandelver. Again. Tyranny of Dragons... again.

 

[Minigiant]

The issue with Spelljammer,Strixhaven and some of the later books is that the settings were verydistantand alternativeto standard D&D.
So the book with

1. A nice size lore chunk
2. A new race or 2
3. A pair of new subclasses
4. A chunk of themed monsters
5. A short adventure
6. A subsystem

strategy only works if you big on 2, 3, or 6 as they make the purchases worthwhile.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'll disagree with you about the slow release. Slower is good. Too slow(which is what we had) was not so good. The new rate seems to be okay, but the quality of books (Spelljammer had like 10 pages of actual setting in it) has plummeted.

I wonder what the legality is of just using stuff that was in the old second edition. I imagine there would be issues if they released stuff word for word the same even if some customers would be happy with that since they don't have access to the original books. The authors of those books probably still have some legal rights to what they wrote for TSR even if WotC bought the company.

So how far away from the original content do they have to get to avoid any legal issues? Could that be part of the issue with why these revisiting old setting books are so thin on the ground.

 

[M_Natas]

I wonder what the legality is of just using stuff that was in the old second edition. I imagine there would be issues if they released stuff word for word the same even if some customers would be happy with that since they don't have access to the original books. The authors of those books probably still have some legal rights to what they wrote for TSR even if WotC bought the company.

So how far away from the original content do they have to get to avoid any legal issues? Could that be part of the issue with why these revisiting old setting books are so thin on the ground.

You can but that stuff as PDF or Print on Demand from DMs Guild.