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Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

Another perspective is, yes, my 4E is wizard is equal to Merlin, as long as I can accept that the fighter is equal to Hercules, the paladin, to Arthur, the rogue, Gray Mouser. A wizard is only "mundane" because the player wants him to outshine his peers.

No, a wizard is mundane because he can't turn someone into a toad. The idea that complaints about the wizard are based only on inter-PC envy is mistaken and frankly insulting. Rather than psychologizing our fellow players, how about we talk about what is different about the class?
 

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I just want to point out that according to 4e players on ENworld who bother to participate in votes, the Wizard is the third most popular class (out of all 16 or however many there are in the PHB1 + PHB2 + FRPG + EPG), despite this nerf.
I disagree with this. The wizard is the third least hated class according to that poll, not the third most popular.

As for the evolution of the 3e wizard to the 4e wizard, their once majestic power was reduced to the same playing field as all the other characters. The power of the wizard needed to be reduced but I would have preferred a different route than the homogenization of power.

The biggest issue with the 3e wizard is that they always got their spell off. 5ft. steps, casting on the defensive (with a typically maxed out concentration) and an under-utilization of techniques against them (such as readied actions to attack or silence) meant that wizards always got their spells off with little fear of losing them. Combine this with how outrageously wizards could defy a uniform economy of action (summoning a legion of individual creatures to control) and you had a recipe for over-powered wizards at higher levels. If these had have been addressed in a different way while maintaining balance, then I think the wizard could maintain their "wizardlyness" without being compressed into the same gamespace of hit points, keywords, conditions and position as everyone else. The ratio of dailies to others gives a little extra colour but not enough to make up the lack. In the end, I'm most likely on the same side as your friend. The 4E wizard is the diet lite, stripped down, bargain basement, unleaded version rather than what went before - and for some people, this is just disappointing.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 


Nerfed, yes. Neutered, no. The wizard can no longer reliably steal the show from the other PCs, and that's deliberate.

As for rituals and buffing: Most rituals don't provide combat buffs. The ones that do, you're not supposed to cast every day! They're for use when you know what you're going up against and need the extra oomph.
 

Another perspective is, yes, my 4E is wizard is equal to Merlin, as long as I can accept that the fighter is equal to Hercules, the paladin, to Arthur, the rogue, Gray Mouser. A wizard is only "mundane" because the player wants him to outshine his peers.
But this is the thing, the fighter is not equal to Hercules, Conan or even Duck Dodgers! The wizard has been demoted; not everyone else upgraded. As for the player wanting to outshine his or her peers - I can buy that to a point for certain players but to tar all wizard players with this same broad brush is incorrect. What is wrong with wizards doing wizardly things? Are we so scared of save or suck that everything now has to be in terms of attrition and grinding away? Wouldn't it be better to have a happy medium?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Flavour this, flavour that...how many spells did Gandalf cast in LotR? Didn't someone calculated that he was pretty much a lv 5 wizard using 3e rules?

The whole appeal to literature/mythology argument that wizards should be all powerful reality warpers is flawed. Wizards in stories are only allowed to be reality warpers because they don't use their reality warping powers in those stories. The only reason they don't take over and dominate the narrative by solving every problem is because of plot. Plot reasons that doesn't exist in a normal D&D game.

Wizards in literature and mythology are all infected with a serious case of Holding Back The Phlebotinum. Wizards in D&D aren't.
 
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But this is the thing, the fighter is not equal to Hercules, Conan or even Duck Dodgers!
But he IS equal to Hercules. Maybe not at first level. But if you take a 21st level Fighter, they are able to do almost everything Hercules can. Even at first level though, he's more akin to Aragorn at the beginning of the first book than he is a peasant who just picked up a sword like 1st level fighters were in 1e/2e.

The wizard has been demoted; not everyone else upgraded. As for the player wanting to outshine his or her peers - I can buy that to a point for certain players but to tar all wizard players with this same broad brush is incorrect. What is wrong with wizards doing wizardly things? Are we so scared of save or suck that everything now has to be in terms of attrition and grinding away?
Everyone got an upgrade. They just got a smaller upgrade than the Wizard got a downgrade. The average 1st level fighter can take on a bunch of lowly goblins and possible a goblin "leader"(read, non-minion. In 3e it would have been a bunch of normal goblins with a couple level 1-3 classed goblins) or two by himself. This group would kill him for sure in any other edition of D&D purely due to lucky rolls.

I don't believe it has to do with being much more powerful than everyone else for everyone. For a lot of people, it's just the ability to wield EXTREME power. I understand that. I miss it sometimes myself. But I understand, intellectually that the kind of power they used to have is no good for a game where I play with 4-6 other people.

What people want out of a Wizard is the ability to wave their hands and have all their enemies turn to stone or into frogs. No way to stop it, because their enemies are not Wizards...and only those who have magic can protect against it.

They want the ability to jump out a window at any time and fly to their destination in no time flat. They want the ability to wave their hand and turn all of their allies invisible for as long as they want.

And people were willing to compromise with the 1e-3e system. They couldn't fly WHENEVER they wanted, only as often as they had the spells prepared. They needed to be high enough level to cast those spells...but they'd get there eventually if they just waited long enough.

But even with all those restrictions in place, it is a far cry from being a 10th level Fighter to being a 10th level Wizard. The Fighter(without magic items) can....use a sword well. The same Wizard is flying, turning invisible, throwing fireballs that do more damage than the sword does to 8 enemies at the same time with no attack roll, while having skin that reflects all blows, force armor, and a force shield. All of which makes the Wizard even tougher than the Fighter is. And if he gets into trouble, he can instantly teleport anywhere he wants in the world.

The Wizard can also use spells to detect traps, trigger them remotely, walk through walls...and any number of a thousand other things.

The next effect is that it is pretty easy to feel useless when you are the one playing the Fighter and to have your fun ruined because of the "anything you can do, I can do better" effect of the Wizard.

From the DM side, it's also difficult to plan adventures around that kind of power. Unless you absolutely don't care where your adventures head, you're always playing a balancing act of "carefully lead the PCs where you want them to go without letting them realize you are leading them." That is easily destroyed when the PCs have hundreds of abilities at their disposal that you might not even expect. I've seen a game destroyed and a DM get really annoyed simply by a well prepared 2e spellcaster.
 

I'm just learning the 4E system, and have never seen a character over 3rd Level in play....

And apparently your friend has never seen an earlier edition wizard before 3rd (or 6th) level of play. "I cast sleep, and hide" or "I cast magic missile, and run". ;)
 

But this is the thing, the fighter is not equal to Hercules, Conan or even Duck Dodgers! The wizard has been demoted; not everyone else upgraded.

My elven fighter would like a word with you ;). I guess you haven't played one, but have you ever seen a well-built fighter in action? My DM learned the hard way that monsters shouldn't try to get away from me. Nevermind that our party is still in the heroic tier (lvl 7).
The 4e fighter is one of the most powerful classes, both IMO and in the opinions of many 4e players on the WotC boards.

I do agree that the wizard has been demoted, but nearly everyone else has been upgraded. (The druid has been demoted for probably the same reason as the wizard.)
 

He loves D&D, but is really skeptical about 4E, and says that his main sticking point (other than the fact that he feels it's too much like an MMORPG) is that Wizards and other spellcasters have been 'neutered' by the new system.

So they're healthier and happier? :D

*ducks!*
 

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