Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

[Votan]

In high level games, many opponents have enough HD that all their saves are boosted above the wizard's spell DCs. In both AD&D and 3e, many high level combats devolve to where only a 1 fails a save, or maybe 1 to 5 in some cases. It's very rare for a monster or NPC to have a completely soft save except through a combination of bad luck and poor planning.

I'm not sure "rare" is exactly correct depending on what we mean by "completely soft". [I'm quite open to being corrected on this point]

Imagine an elite array wizard (Int 15) at level 16 with a +2 from a tome and a +6 from a stat adder (much as I despite them). It's reasonable that her Int will be: 15 + 4 (level) + 2 (tome) + 6 (headband of intellect) for a 27 INT.

That gives her a +8 add to spells so her 6th level spells have a DC 24 to save (that being 2 levels below peak, let's not assume the perfect spell is available at 8th but rather that something useful is in the top 3 spell levels).

From the SRD;

1) Titan (CR 21) Saves: Fort +26, Ref +13, Will +21

Needs a 2+ to save Fort, an 11+ to save reflex and a 3+ to save will (and is 5 levels above the wizard (ut is a good example if we shifted to a level 20 wizard)

2) Nightcrawler (CR 18) Saves: Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +23

Might as well not bother with a will save based spell but that distintegrate needs the beastie to roll a 12+ to save and it's even worse with a delayed blast fireball.

3) Marlith (CR 17) Saves: Fort +19, Ref +14, Will +14

Fort saves against a 6th level spell on a 5+, requires a 10+ to save versus a 6th level spell if it targets will or reflex.

These are all critters in the same range as a high level wizard. Even dragons tend to lag in reflex saves. These weak saves aren't completely soft but the 13 point save gaps in the Nightcrawler or Titan are not unimportant.

The Marilith is more balanced but save targeting can shift a "save or bad thing happens" from 20% chance (disintegrate) to 45% chance (Repulsion to keep those swords away). Some creatures are very balanced (Balor) and I see that as a major advantage for these monsters.

I also did not add spell focus and greater spell focus (the key spell might not be in the correct school) but these can also make the weak save of the Titan (for example) really show up (as in it has little hope of saving). A DC 28 level 8 spell in a school with focus and a reflex save is saved on a 15+ for the Titan and 18+ for the Nightcrawler. And a pearl of power (core item) can handle that agonizing 19 for the first save roll should it happen . . .

Sometimes these things are subtle but I have a long experience with players just opening up with the (frequently prepared as it is often useful) disintegrate spell when undead appear after level 14 or so . . .

I agree, ahead of time, that this maybe different in fully supplemented and homebrewed 3.5E where the DM is adapting the creatures to the (far tougher) late 3.5 character builds.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

In high level games, many opponents have enough HD that all their saves are boosted above the wizard's spell DCs. In both AD&D and 3e, many high level combats devolve to where only a 1 fails a save, or maybe 1 to 5 in some cases. It's very rare for a monster or NPC to have a completely soft save except through a combination of bad luck and poor planning.

See, there, your experience is different from mine.

3e got rid of 2e's save system and cut it down to only three saves. That's cool. But 3e also got rid of 2e's "Everyone progresses in all saves, just some a bit faster then others." Instead, you have fighters, who essentially fail everything but fortitude saves, and wizards, who do the same but for will saves.

3e was much more friendly towards save-or-dies.

The other thing 3e did was jack up the health of just about everything, which only put more emphasis on save or dies.

 

[nightwyrm]

We can also take a look at some of the iconic strongest monsters:

Asmodeus CR 27
Fort +27 Ref +23 Will +29

Graz'zt CR 22
Fort +27 Ref +24 Will +20

Demogorgon CR 23
Fort +29 Ref +23 Will +21

Great Wyrm Gold Dragon CR 27
Fort +33 Ref +22 Will +33

Consider that the minimum DC for a level 9 spell is 23 (10+spell lv+bonus from int 19).

 

[Obryn]

Imagine an elite array wizard (Int 15) at level 16 with a +2 from a tome and a +6 from a stat adder (much as I despite them). It's reasonable that her Int will be: 15 + 4 (level) + 2 (tome) + 6 (headband of intellect) for a 27 INT.

That gives her a +8 add to spells so her 6th level spells have a DC 24 to save (that being 2 levels below peak, let's not assume the perfect spell is available at 8th but rather that something useful is in the top 3 spell levels).

Yep, and IME, few campaigns just used the elite array as-is. Most Wizards started with a 16+ - and higher if you go outside the PHB. Just looking at one common non-PHB book, Sun Elves from the 3e FR setting have INT bonuses and no EL. (Heck, if you're running FR, you might as well throw the utterly insane Spellcasting Prodigy feat in there, too.)

So we're looking at IME a minimum DC 25 against level 6 spells, and at least a 27 for level 8 spells. And probably a point or two higher. Like I said upthread, it's rock-paper-scissors; just pick the right defense against most creatures.

-O

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Even without auto-success, like on a monster with three high saves, a 33%-50% chance of defeating the boss outright is more powerful than anything else anyone can do.

If it takes 2-3 tries, thats what it takes. Often it won't take that long.

This doesn't even consider Ray or Suck spells.

 

[Voadam]

I agree, ahead of time, that this maybe different in fully supplemented and homebrewed 3.5E where the DM is adapting the creatures to the (far tougher) late 3.5 character builds.

A couple techniques that have worked since 3.0.

Advance an undead 4 HD to go up 1 CR. Each weak save goes up at least +1. Advance say a Mohrg up to CR 16 and see how he does.

Use an undead template, perhaps a fighter vampire, and the disintegrate does not do so well against a strong fort save. True they are now weak on will saves but they are still immune to mind affecting spells.

For High CR monsters don't forget the outsider SR in addition to all good saves.

 

[nightwyrm]

A couple techniques that have worked since 3.0.

Advance an undead 4 HD to go up 1 CR. Each weak save goes up at least +1. Advance say a Mohrg up to CR 16 and see how he does.

Use an undead template, perhaps a fighter vampire, and the disintegrate does not do so well against a strong fort save. True they are now weak on will saves but they are still immune to mind affecting spells.

For High CR monsters don't forget the outsider SR in addition to all good saves.

Except that undeads have 0 con. They have terrible fort saves and are disintegrate bait.

 

[Votan]

A couple techniques that have worked since 3.0.

Advance an undead 4 HD to go up 1 CR. Each weak save goes up at least +1. Advance say a Mohrg up to CR 16 and see how he does.

Use an undead template, perhaps a fighter vampire, and the disintegrate does not do so well against a strong fort save. True they are now weak on will saves but they are still immune to mind affecting spells.

For High CR monsters don't forget the outsider SR in addition to all good saves.

It is true that you can do a lot to customize monsters to avoid some of these issues. But I was curious how the basic SRD creatures did and it is amazing how poorly they do.

If we go beyond the PHB, there is a 4th level spell that is a swift action that gives +10 to penetrate spell resistance: Assay Spell Resistance (Sor/Wiz 4). It lasts one round/level so you cast it once and your target is reduced in defenses for the rest of the combat.

Our Marilith has a spell resistance of 25; after Assay Spell Resistance it is 15 and a 16th level caster will pierce it on a 2+. Even the mighty Balor, at SR 28, needs only a 2+ from a 16th level caster using this spell.

Even within the PHB, the wizard goes through on a 9+, less if she invested in spell penetration, greater spell penetration and a robe of the archmagi.

The best a Mohrg can do is 28 HD by the SRD, with a weak Fort Save that is
a +9 (no con bonus) and he needs a mircale to save. If we did allow a 44 HD Mohrg (as CR 16 monster) it'd have a +15 Fort Save (needs an 11+ to save) and 286 hit points. Save or die still looks awful tempting . . .

 

[ProfessorCirno]

One of the issues with SoD's is that, while they're a problem in the Core game, once you leave Core, it just gets worst. Look at the aforementioned Assay Spell Resistance.

The issue with casters is that almost every single book increased their power. Druids were especially bad about this, because their power increased with both every new spell AND every new monster. And while spellcasters got new ways of lowering enemy resistance and new spells to destroy them, the fundamental issue of saves was never addressed. It's a gap that just got wider.

 

[cattoy]

It is certainly doable. I think they could be the gateway to more non-combat magic, and they are available to all classes - with a little buy in - wizards obviously have a leg up on everyone else.

I would love a series of articles on DDI expanding the role of rituals in a campaign and not just giving more rituals. One of the wizard epic destinies allows free use of rituals; more of that please.

Even so, wizards don't have a monopoly on ritual magic. So this helps little if at all.