Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

[AllisterH]

I agree that these kind of fights can be fun, but IME they have a bad effect on the game overall. They force the dreaded 15 min adventurers day, they necessitate well-built characters, and they foster a DM vs players atmosphere.
Personally I prefer adventure design that leaves place for quirky PCs, inefficient strategies chosen for RP reasons, and many encounters between rests.

Well keep in mind that this is because of the cheap existence of wands (another reason why the casters in 3e are so much stronger).

Without wands of CLW, in pre 3e D&D, you could have a series of encounters that only took off 10-15% of the HP of the fighter but it would be tense as there was no way for the fighter to get back to full HP without the use of the cleric's actual spell slots.

 

[pawsplay]

Well keep in mind that this is because of the cheap existence of wands (another reason why the casters in 3e are so much stronger).

Without wands of CLW, in pre 3e D&D, you could have a series of encounters that only took off 10-15% of the HP of the fighter but it would be tense as there was no way for the fighter to get back to full HP without the use of the cleric's actual spell slots.

Or the use of potions of CLW, which were plentifully available in AD&D anywhere there was a clerical temple.

 

[Obryn]

Or the use of potions of CLW, which were plentifully available in AD&D anywhere there was a clerical temple.

...where are you getting this from?

-O

 

[AllisterH]

Or the use of potions of CLW, which were plentifully available in AD&D anywhere there was a clerical temple.

Huh?

If you were able to finagle a potion from a temple, it usually came with a cost attached (namely, do this ques for us and this potion will be part of the reward/gear) and more importantly, you certainly weren't getting 50 potions at a time a la the wand of CLW.

 

[Henry]

I'll agree here -- in my games of AD&D "back in the day", we rarely had "plentiful" potions of healing or extra-healing in the clerical sector. It was onesies and twosies if at all, the way both groups I played in back then ever played it.

 

[pawsplay]

Huh?

If you were able to finagle a potion from a temple, it usually came with a cost attached (namely, do this ques for us and this potion will be part of the reward/gear) and more importantly, you certainly weren't getting 50 potions at a time a la the wand of CLW.

In AD&D, potions are easily manufactured using a few hundred gp of ingredients and one or more "special ingredients." Unless the DM chooses to make potions of healing rare, which the DMG does not suggest, the PCs should be able to either purchase the potions outright, or else agree to a quest of some sort in order to have the potions made. So although potions are not available at the local Sam's Club, anywhere there are name-levels priests, potions of healing are potentially available. Scrolls are even simpler; the only requirements are fine materials and some kind of special ink, determined by the DM. Doubtlessly, the ink required for a clerical scroll of CLW, while closely guarded by the clerics themselves, is something that is common knowledge among powerful clerics.

It is true that getting a fully charged, 50 charge wand of CLW is more involved in AD&D than in 3e, no question. Still, scrounging up up a few partially charged wands is probably not outside the realm of possibility. And wands found as treasure are no more likely to have all 50 charges in 3e than in AD&D.

 

[pawsplay]

I'll agree here -- in my games of AD&D "back in the day", we rarely had "plentiful" potions of healing or extra-healing in the clerical sector. It was onesies and twosies if at all, the way both groups I played in back then ever played it.

I think that's typical in low and mid-level games. I certainly remember schlepping back to town to heal for a few days. However, at "name level," PCs can create their own magic items, and have the gold and influence to have scrolls and potions made.

 

[AllisterH]

In AD&D, potions are easily manufactured using a few hundred gp of ingredients and one or more "special ingredients." Unless the DM chooses to make potions of healing rare, which the DMG does not suggest, the PCs should be able to either purchase the potions outright, or else agree to a quest of some sort in order to have the potions made. So although potions are not available at the local Sam's Club, anywhere there are name-levels priests, potions of healing are potentially available. Scrolls are even simpler; the only requirements are fine materials and some kind of special ink, determined by the DM. Doubtlessly, the ink required for a clerical scroll of CLW, while closely guarded by the clerics themselves, is something that is common knowledge among powerful clerics.

I.

You are really overestimating how EASY item creation was in pre 3e.

Item creation in 1e/2e literally took weeks for even a simple scroll. Here's the actual text from PO:S&M for a scroll of Protection from Poison.

Milana, 8th level priestess. Since she can cast Neutralize Poison, no research needed. Spell equivalent is 4th so DM decides it needs an exotic material fort he ink.

DM decides it is nightshade harvested during the dark of the moon which takes over a week for Milana to find and harvest. The quill is a feather steeped in the venom of ana dder. After getting the ingredients, it takes another full week to scribe the scroll and then she still has to pass her creation check.

Similarly, the philter of love requires an adventure in of itself (requires the tears of a dryad) and the research itself to find this out was 1d3+1 weeks.

The cost of magic item was trivial, but the time and effort?

 

[Obryn]

In AD&D, potions are easily manufactured using a few hundred gp of ingredients and one or more "special ingredients." Unless the DM chooses to make potions of healing rare, which the DMG does not suggest, the PCs should be able to either purchase the potions outright, or else agree to a quest of some sort in order to have the potions made. So although potions are not available at the local Sam's Club, anywhere there are name-levels priests, potions of healing are potentially available. Scrolls are even simpler; the only requirements are fine materials and some kind of special ink, determined by the DM. Doubtlessly, the ink required for a clerical scroll of CLW, while closely guarded by the clerics themselves, is something that is common knowledge among powerful clerics.

It is true that getting a fully charged, 50 charge wand of CLW is more involved in AD&D than in 3e, no question. Still, scrounging up up a few partially charged wands is probably not outside the realm of possibility. And wands found as treasure are no more likely to have all 50 charges in 3e than in AD&D.

Again, where are you getting this?

Can you give me some sort of cite from the 1e books? Or an example that this was at all commonplace?

-O

 

[pawsplay]

I'm looking at DM's Option: High Level Campaigns right now, which is more specific than the DMG, and it says a potion of healing (2d4+2 hit points) involves 200 gp, two days, and one "rare" ingredient, such as silk, roc feathers, etc. That's a snap. That's what we were specifically talking about, the availability of low level healing, not creating high level magic items.