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Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

Whereas the only spellcasting druids in literature I can think of would be Merlin, of the Arthurian saga, and the druids in the Shannara books, who are associated with the magic-user/wizard archetype in D&D.

How many wizards from literature can you name who actually turn people into frogs though? I think the trope of turning cursing people as frogs is more a witch thing (for which D&D has no official class).

Thematically, baleful polymorph makes sense as a druid spell. You're transforming someone into a cute and harmless animal. Even in 3x, it was on the druid's spell list as well as the wizard's.

4e just gives classes different spell lists to differentiate them, so they had to pick one or the other. (If you really want a wizard capable of casting "Folks to Frogs" you only need 2 feats to multiclass for it, or playing a hybrid wizard/druid is also a viable option.)
 

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I can understand that. Basically, the rules of 3E really require that the team have at the very least a primary Divine caster such as a Cleric or Druid, and strongly recommends a Wizard (though a Sorcerer or Psion may suffice). This is not explicit, but your average group of players will have a very hard time going through the game using the rules as written without those specific classes. If the game is heavy on stealth and traps, than either a caster skilled with anti-trap utility spells or a Rogue is pretty necessary...

As I pointed out pages upthread to Hussar, 3Ed does not make such an assumption in the rules, but its obvious that many people have assumed that this is so.

IME, the game is perfectly playable with a party when one or 2 of the roles is minimized (the aforementioned successfully completed RttToEE campaign with no divine spell availability over 2nd level) or even completely void (one campaign with just Warriors, a campaign-specific variant of the BttlSorc, and a Divine Caster, and another with just Warriors, a Monk and an Arcanist).
 

That lack of "feel" is one thing that disappointed me about Wizards in 4E. Now, admittedly, I had some issues with spell changes made in 3.5.....but I say that as a DM that never had issues with players abusing spells that some other DMs had problems with (Polymorph et al).
I don't think you addressed Rituals in your post, so how do you think they fit in to your generalization that spells only blow stuff up or move things? Most common I think people find that they aren't powerful enough, which leads me to believe it's not about the 'feel' for most people, it's about the power that wizards have traditionally had.
 


Well, that's why I said STANDARD enemy, to exclude minions, elites, solos, etc. But 4 or 5 HP isn't all that different from 1 (especially for attacks that include an attribute bonus to damage), so it's more like ALL the (unadvanced, unleveled) kobolds and goblins were minions before, dying two at time to cleave.

Hmmm sorry I have to compare back to AD&D instead of 3e, so I am off... you didnt get an attack against a second enemy at level 1. Of course since a fighter had so few hp that he was defensively barely better than a minion it was a crap shoot.. even against minimal enemies you only had slight advantage... unless pure luck was on your side.
 

Hmmm sorry I have to compare back to AD&D instead of 3e, so I am off... you didnt get an attack against a second enemy at level 1. Of course since a fighter had so few hp that he was defensively barely better than a minion it was a crap shoot.. even against minimal enemies you only had slight advantage... unless pure luck was on your side.

Well, yes and no. Yes, the fighter may have had less hit points (depending on the luck of the dice) but, let's not forget, the orcs and kobolds are hitting far less often and far less hard.

A 1e fighter at 1st level isn't too put out to get an AC of 4 (chain+shield is hardly a difficult assumption. Banded is quite possible for an AC of 3) and the orc or kobold had a THAC0 of 19. That means the orc's only hitting about 25%. If the fighter has a dex bonus, that goes down by 5% every point of AC bonus. A 16 Dex (again, not a huge assumption IME) is worth a -2 AC bonus, and now the baddies are only hitting about 10-15% of the time.

And, let's not forget, the average damage for an orc is only 4 points.

Compare to a 3e orc, where his effective base THAC0, because of his strength, is 16 and the AC of the fighter at 1st level isn't all that different with a 16 or 17 AC being about average. That means (in 1e terms) the orc is now hitting on a 12 or a 13, instead of a 16 or an 18. Plus, our orc is now doing an average of 9 points of damage per hit.

IOW, the orc is hitting twice as often and twice as hard.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that 1e 1st level characters were these fragile little flowers that folded if you sneezed at them wrong and 3e 1st level characters could waltz all over every encounter. IME, 3e combat was far more lethal (barring save or die) than 1e. I rarely killed PC's due to hit point loss in 1e. In 3e, it's ridiculously easy to obliterate a PC at just about any level with an EL=Par encounter.
 


Well, yes and no. Yes, the fighter may have had less hit points (depending on the luck of the dice) but, let's not forget, the orcs and kobolds are hitting far less often and far less hard.
Less often = crapshoot I mentioned.
A 1e fighter at 1st level isn't too put out to get an AC of 4 (chain+shield is hardly a difficult assumption. Banded is quite possible for an AC of 3) and the orc or kobold had a THAC0 of 19. That means the orc's only hitting about 25%. If the fighter has a dex bonus, that goes down by 5% every point of AC bonus.
Dex bonuses didnt start kicking in until you had very high attributes... people used to 4e with 12 actually meaning something different than 10 would be confused by having to wait till the very high end (attribute values 15+) to see actual bonuses.

The die rolls during character creation were also an incredibly significant part of that crap shoot. It was very easy not to have Dex on a fighter high enough to boost it.

A 16 Dex (again, not a huge assumption IME) is worth a -2 AC bonus, and now the baddies are only hitting about 10-15% of the time.

And, let's not forget, the average damage for an orc is only 4 points.

Compare to a 3e orc, where his effective base THAC0, because of his strength, is 16 and the AC of the fighter at 1st level isn't all that different with a 16 or 17 AC being about average. That means (in 1e terms) the orc is now hitting on a 12 or a 13, instead of a 16 or an 18. Plus, our orc is now doing an average of 9 points of damage per hit.

IOW, the orc is hitting twice as often and twice as hard.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that 1e 1st level characters were these fragile little flowers that folded if you sneezed at them wrong and 3e 1st level characters could waltz all over every encounter. IME, 3e combat was far more lethal (barring save or die) than 1e. I rarely killed PC's due to hit point loss in 1e. In 3e, it's ridiculously easy to obliterate a PC at just about any level with an EL=Par encounter.

Well I can't compare 3e ...but it was indeed also ridiculously easy to obliterate PC's if you werent blessing them with super extreme attributes in AD&D at level 1 (and the fighters attacks could not hit two at a time no cleaves unless they were 2nd level and attacking 2 zero levels for instance.)

A relatively normal roll 4 take the highest three
16 str ,11 int, 15 con, 14 dex, 13 wiz, 12 cha is a very average pc fighter who got +1 on hp and +1 on to hit (and +2 damage?) no garantee on bonus armor class or hp at all. -- I am operating on memories from back in the very early 80's.

And the above character could have still had 2 hp and die so easily.

Some people came up with even nicer than 4d6 take highest three.
For instance doing that plus re roll all ones started to become common.

Win the attribute or hitpoint dice lottos and you were a little more survivable... but the good news was most people threw away characters some if you didn't have 2 attributes 16 or better and i seen some just plain dice cheating. I saw DMs see one rolled on hit points and said.... nyeah reroll that please.

18 strength was common and 16 dex was common and 14/16 con was common but not necessarily because the game rules said they should be. House ruling to give everyone max level one starting hp became common too.

An AD&D fighter without winning the dice lotto or cheating at it took 2 hits to go down(or only 1). Thief, Magic User, Cleric went down to 1 hit which with poor armor class (for the non cleric) would likely be 1 attack.

Of course you had what? three choices in character creation so one dies boom make another.
 
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Didn't TSR publish a module with a pregen wizard that was younger than that?

The dmg had a die rolling method for magic users that I recall would not generate anything less than 21 ... modules they is fluff ;p

But then again age can be handled just fine as purely fluff
the point for me was the ages implied definite adulthood but the
character competance didnt feel up to par... you werent a knight
you were a page. You werent a wizard you were an apprentice.
 
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A relatively normal roll 4 take the highest three
16 str ,11 int, 15 con, 14 dex, 13 wiz, 12 cha is a very average pc fighter who got +1 on hp and +1 on to hit (and +2 damage?) no garantee on bonus armor class or hp at all. -- I am operating on memories from back in the very early 80's.

With 1e/2e rules? Your 16 str gets you a +1 to damage and that's it. To hit bonuses don't start till str 17. You don't get bonus hp till your con goes to 16 and you start getting AC bonuses when your dex reaches 15. So at the very least I'd switch your con and dex.

With TSR editions, your stats were pretty much meaningless unless you get 16 or above.
(unless you're a caster in which case every point in your casting stat counts, but only due to how it affects which and how many spells you can learn)
 
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