Wizards vs. Psions at Level 20

[superkurt13]

Could someone please explain to me why wizards are considered to be so much more powerful at level 20 than psions are? I understand that they have manay more high level spells but other than that is there any reason?

The way I look at it, i think Psions have the edge at this level if the DM runs the game according to the D&D standard of 3-4 encounters and 20 rounds of combat per day. A well built psion can manifest a 9th level power more than 20 times at that level, meaning every round of combat will be a high level power. A wizard, on the other hand, only has 4 9th level spells per day, about 1 per encounter.

I'd like to get some other thoughts to see if there is something else I'm missing. Why is it generally thought that wizards are more powerful than psions at high levels?

 

[IcyCool]

A psion has the advantage over an equal level wizard at every level. The only chance the wizard has is if he knows he will be facing off against the psion ahead of time. And then it's pretty even to slightly favoring the wizard (because the wizard has enough spells to choose from to be well prepared to face the psion).

 

[Wolfwood2]

I'd like to get some other thoughts to see if there is something else I'm missing. Why is it generally thought that wizards are more powerful than psions at high levels?

Because arcane magic can produce a wider variety of effects and is overall more powerful. And the wizard will have more spells to choose from.

That's the primary thing you're missing, assuming that high level psionics and high level arcane magic are essentially equal. They're not.

 

[Jack Simth]

There's lots of little to medium things.

Yes, a Psion can manifest 20 9th level powers in a day... but then the Psion isn't doing much of anything else, such as Moment of Prescience, Contingency, Mind Blank, Displacement, Mirror Image, or any of a number of other things that are exceptionally useful.

The Psion-20 has 36 powers known (barring the expenditure of feats, and that clause in Psychic Chigury); the Wizard, even without scribing extra spells into his spellbook, will have in excess of 50 different spells (although 10 or so will be cantrips); with scribing, the Wizard can reasonably have essentially every spell in the PHB and then some.

The Wizard rests comfortably, Mind Blanked, in his Magnificient Mansion that's been Private Sanctumed and possibly Dimension Locked, very difficult to ambush, while the Psion.... umm ... has to find a safe place to rest.

The Psion effectively loses caster levels to metamagic something (except Heighten) while the Wizard doesn't.

Just about every suppliment has a few things for the Wizard... not so the Psion.

And so on.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Could someone please explain to me why wizards are considered to be so much more powerful at level 20 than psions are? I understand that they have manay more high level spells but other than that is there any reason?

The way I look at it, i think Psions have the edge at this level if the DM runs the game according to the D&D standard of 3-4 encounters and 20 rounds of combat per day. A well built psion can manifest a 9th level power more than 20 times at that level, meaning every round of combat will be a high level power. A wizard, on the other hand, only has 4 9th level spells per day, about 1 per encounter.

I'd like to get some other thoughts to see if there is something else I'm missing. Why is it generally thought that wizards are more powerful than psions at high levels?

I agree with you that the Psion has the advantage unless the Wizard knows what is going to hit them. The Psion like the Sorcerer has access to all of their powers regardless of the situation. The Wizard's vast breadth of spells gives him the advantage in preparedness. There are spells such as Maze, Shapechange, ect ... that are not duplicated in the Psions repertoire. All of the Psions powers can be upped to equivalent of 9th level spells.

Edited.

The Psion will have the advantage in short term damage potential. Either Empower and or Split Psionic Ray. Nothing beats these as they only cost two points of the augmented power. You get for 20 PP’s 90 pts (Fire/Cold), 70 pts (Electrical) or 50 pts (Sonic). With empower, 121 pts (fire/cold), 95 pts (electrical), 67 pts (sonic). With split twin ray, 2x81 pts (fire/cold), 2x93 pts (electrical) or 2x45 pts (sonic). If you have Picrystal containment, for one round you could do, 2x108 (fire/cold), 2x84 pts (electrical) or 2x60 pts (sonic). If you have Psionic Meditation, you can use a Metapsionic feat every round.

What could be worse is if you sacrifice 3 level for wizard and then take the cerebremancer PrC. A 20th level character would be effectively a 17th level Psion and 13th level wizard.

 

[Slaved]

Specialist versus non-specialist? If you specialize that wizard the comparison is closer.

What things does the psion do better than the wizard? What thinds does the wizard do better than the psion?

If you can make those two lists that should help show you why each is considered more or less powerful than the other. Take those lists, apply them to your campaign, and then you will know, more or less, who is likely to be better in your own games.

You still have to contend with prestige classes though. Does anyone actually take wizard to 20 when it is so much better to prestige class him?

A well built wizard at level 20 should have an answer to every situation he could possibly come up against, sometimes even without giving him 15 minutes first. He is a master of battlefield control, party buffing, and save or die spells.

The psion at level 20 can manipulate his powers, if chosen well, to at least manage in every situation. It may not be the best for the job, and is unlikely to be efficient, but it works. He is a master of using what resources he has to get the job done (unless of course that job is party buffing, save or dies, or battlefield control anywhere near as effective as wizards).

But I would definately suggest looking over the various spells and powers that would be available in your game, make lists of what each is good and bad at and then compare those to what you normally see in your own game. Remember that the psion is a specialist so some choices are just not there for him along with using lower level effects cuts into higher level effects, unlike the wizard.

 

[pawsplay]

At 20th level, spells/day is not even an issue. A wizard could have any scrolls he wanted.

Int 15 + 5 Int increase + 6 enhancement +5 inherent (from wishes) = 31 Int, enough for bonus 9th level spells anyway. And frankly, the combat is not likely to last more than a few rounds anyway.

 

[Bad Paper]

Does anyone actually take wizard to 20 when it is so much better to prestige class him?

woah, there, fella! I can't think of a wizard-type prestige class that giveth without takething away. not so sure your assumption is true

 

[Nail]

Could someone please explain to me why wizards are considered to be so much more powerful at level 20 than psions are?

They aren't.

Your orginal question is based on a flawed assumption.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

woah, there, fella! I can't think of a wizard-type prestige class that giveth without takething away. not so sure your assumption is true

In respect to wizards, I believe you are correct here. At the very minimum you give up familiar advancement typically and bonus feats.

Now if we want to talk about why a person would take a sorcerer to 20 when they could PrC ... I think there are plenty of PrC classes that give full spell progression. So technically you do still lose a bit of familiar stuff. But what sorcerer wouldn't PrC except for RP and flavor reasons. Mechanically, is there a reason not to PrC a sorcerer?