Word origins: Baatezu and Tanar'ri?
- Thread starter Chronosome
- Start date
Andrew D. Gable
First Post
Re: Names????
Are you sure you're not thinking qlipoth? The qlipoth weren't truly demons...more like celestial leftovers.
How's everybody say these? Its ba-EIGHT-zu and tay-nar-RI for me.
Aeris Winterood said:
Are you sure you're not thinking qlipoth? The qlipoth weren't truly demons...more like celestial leftovers.
How's everybody say these? Its ba-EIGHT-zu and tay-nar-RI for me.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Go check out www.wizards.com/planescape/critters.zip which is a pronounciation guide to Planescape creatures.
They are "bay-AH-teh-zoo" and "tah-NAR-ree".
They are "bay-AH-teh-zoo" and "tah-NAR-ree".
Chronosome
Explorer
Heh. 
I remember first hearing the Player's Primer to the Outlands CD, and hearing some berk say "Bay-AHT-eh-zoo" and "Bay-UH-tor"...
I'd always pronounced 'em "Bah-TAY-zoo" and "BAH-tor"...it's one of those habits I just couldn't shake afterward, so, "Bah-TAY-zoo" it stays.
I remember first hearing the Player's Primer to the Outlands CD, and hearing some berk say "Bay-AHT-eh-zoo" and "Bay-UH-tor"...
I'd always pronounced 'em "Bah-TAY-zoo" and "BAH-tor"...it's one of those habits I just couldn't shake afterward, so, "Bah-TAY-zoo" it stays.
Gez
First Post
Re: Re: Names????
French is great in that, when you see a word, you know how to pronounce it (exceptions are rare, and they usually involve conjuguing a verb, or using a foreign word).
Hence I can proudly say I pronounce them:
Baatezu, Tanar'ri and Yugoloth (oh, and Gehreleth too, with the exception I prefer to use a hard 'g' as in "gorilla" rather than as in "genius", it sounds better that way).
Re: Qlippoth. The name comes straight from the Kabbalah. They are the 7 (IIRC, but not sure) steps on the inverted Tree of Life. It means "shell" or "husk".
Use the Google, Luke
Here's one page found with the Power of the Google that seems quite relevant to the discussion.
Re: Baal. Baal wasn't really a name, rather a noun. It meant "Master". Of course, the "master" of foreigners could only be a devil for the early Jews. That peculiar form of religious intolerance was later inherited by the daughter-religions of judaism (that's why the Christian satan is a goatboy, rather than a snake, it was to diabolize Pan -- the snake itself was probably to diabolize the ourobouros of even older myths).
Re: Baatezu. Baatezu and Baator were coined at the same time, and this is why they seem consistent. The -zu suffix is used for several devils -- amnizu, uridezu, etc. The "baa" part was probably indeed to echo Baal.
Re: Tanar'ri. That construction, on the other hand, is less well-made IMHO. Besides, it sounds to me too much like canaris (canary), tamaris (pink-flowered plants, hadn't found name in English) or panaris (whitlow).
Re: Yugoloth. Apart from sounding like Yugoslavia (Gehenan powederkeg ?), that name really is funny. Just look how it was coined (yeah, I'm sure of it): Yoghurt -> Yughort -> Yugorth -> Yugoroth -> Yugoloth. The coiner of that word was probably lactose-intolerant.
Andrew D. Gable said:
French is great in that, when you see a word, you know how to pronounce it (exceptions are rare, and they usually involve conjuguing a verb, or using a foreign word).
Hence I can proudly say I pronounce them:
Baatezu, Tanar'ri and Yugoloth (oh, and Gehreleth too, with the exception I prefer to use a hard 'g' as in "gorilla" rather than as in "genius", it sounds better that way).
Re: Qlippoth. The name comes straight from the Kabbalah. They are the 7 (IIRC, but not sure) steps on the inverted Tree of Life. It means "shell" or "husk".
Use the Google, Luke
Here's one page found with the Power of the Google that seems quite relevant to the discussion.
Re: Baal. Baal wasn't really a name, rather a noun. It meant "Master". Of course, the "master" of foreigners could only be a devil for the early Jews. That peculiar form of religious intolerance was later inherited by the daughter-religions of judaism (that's why the Christian satan is a goatboy, rather than a snake, it was to diabolize Pan -- the snake itself was probably to diabolize the ourobouros of even older myths).
Re: Baatezu. Baatezu and Baator were coined at the same time, and this is why they seem consistent. The -zu suffix is used for several devils -- amnizu, uridezu, etc. The "baa" part was probably indeed to echo Baal.
Re: Tanar'ri. That construction, on the other hand, is less well-made IMHO. Besides, it sounds to me too much like canaris (canary), tamaris (pink-flowered plants, hadn't found name in English) or panaris (whitlow).
Re: Yugoloth. Apart from sounding like Yugoslavia (Gehenan powederkeg ?), that name really is funny. Just look how it was coined (yeah, I'm sure of it): Yoghurt -> Yughort -> Yugorth -> Yugoroth -> Yugoloth. The coiner of that word was probably lactose-intolerant.
Michael Tree
First Post
Are you sure it didn't say they were Tartars, or of Tartary? That's the name Eastern Europeans gave to the mongols, believing they were from Tartarus (ie. they were demons).JoeGKushner said:
Chronosome
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Names????
Well, I know that's not right. Baator wasn't named until Planescape...in the Outer Planes Appendix for the MC, the baatezu were said to be from the Nine Hells...
Funny page, mang.
Gez said:
Well, I know that's not right. Baator wasn't named until Planescape...in the Outer Planes Appendix for the MC, the baatezu were said to be from the Nine Hells...
Funny page, mang.
DM_Matt
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Names????
What was that about religious intolerance again?
...Mr. Kettle, there is a Mr. Pot holding on Line one.....
BTW, the way you describe those origions is rooted slightly in truth but twist it so much that it doesnt much resemble reality.
Baal, meaning master, was indeed a Canaanite god, but not considered a devil until much later. At the time he was worshipped, when all religions were almost-exclusively tied to peoplehood/clan, he was just someone that the Bible said not to worship beucase doing so meant defection from the comunity to join an enemy people that they were actively at war with. Later, in Christian times, when the role of Satan was increased, poeple reinterpreted certain references in the Bible to foreign gods or to demons as having sometihng to do with Satan. The Bible is reinterpreted all the time to fit the context that it is read in. That is really one of the beauties of the work.
As far as Pan and the ourobourous, remember that human/animal hybrids were incredably common ways of imagining demons and other monsters for humans of all cultures. Certain animals like goats, snakes, and many others, were used more than others, often due to their own particular negative qualities (I don't think, for instance, that one needs to make the tremendous logical leap about the ourobourous to figure out why people often found snakes to be bad)
Gez said:
What was that about religious intolerance again?
...Mr. Kettle, there is a Mr. Pot holding on Line one.....
BTW, the way you describe those origions is rooted slightly in truth but twist it so much that it doesnt much resemble reality.
Baal, meaning master, was indeed a Canaanite god, but not considered a devil until much later. At the time he was worshipped, when all religions were almost-exclusively tied to peoplehood/clan, he was just someone that the Bible said not to worship beucase doing so meant defection from the comunity to join an enemy people that they were actively at war with. Later, in Christian times, when the role of Satan was increased, poeple reinterpreted certain references in the Bible to foreign gods or to demons as having sometihng to do with Satan. The Bible is reinterpreted all the time to fit the context that it is read in. That is really one of the beauties of the work.
As far as Pan and the ourobourous, remember that human/animal hybrids were incredably common ways of imagining demons and other monsters for humans of all cultures. Certain animals like goats, snakes, and many others, were used more than others, often due to their own particular negative qualities (I don't think, for instance, that one needs to make the tremendous logical leap about the ourobourous to figure out why people often found snakes to be bad)
s/LaSH
First Post
I noticed while reading through that both Baatezu and Baator start with a sort of 'Bart' sound. Maybe it's that hellion from the Simpsons.
Oh, and just because it's an interesting piece of knowledge, I live in New Zealand, a place where there are no snakes. Or satyrs. Some call it Godzone.
(It was late and I was tired.)
Oh, and just because it's an interesting piece of knowledge, I live in New Zealand, a place where there are no snakes. Or satyrs. Some call it Godzone.
(It was late and I was tired.)
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