|Words to Live By: an Alignment thread about Codes of Conduct

[steeldragons]

Here's some of mine from my old home-brew

Codes of St. Ethelred Defender of the defenseless.
--snipped for brevity--

Lots of good stuff there, Thunderfoot. Thanks for sharing.

I especially like "covering your bases" with the "in speech, manner, thought and deed." Nice catch-all/CYA.

I "must spread some around..." or I would have said so with XP. But didn't want the post going by unacknowledged.

--SD

 

[ANewPosterAppears]

I don't use alignments in my game. Paladins form their own code individually and must be held to it. If they break their code and fall, I hold them to very strict punishments, by which I mean no punishments whatsoever, we just roleplay it as it goes. Granted, different orders of paladins would have different ideals they emphasize, which should probably appear in their code somewhere.

So a paladin of Saint Eretrius would include the ideals of protecting the innocent and meek, or justice against the wicked. On the other hand, a dragonborn paladin would likely follow ideals including putting the dragonborn above all other races, acting with pride, and obeying all greater creatures of the scale. Tiefling paladins who follow Listea, the greater god of weapons and battle, would have a very different personal code from those that follow Yurishentei, greater god of fire and civilization.

A paladin is his code. The question alone of "Why did they become a paladin?" should be something that brings out lots of character development. Depending on who's doing the writing, sometimes Lancelot truly is the greatest knight, but all he sees in himself is failure, so he looks to his code to try and see his own ideals. Other times, Lancelot is a brute, a would-be murderer and D&D-esque blackguard, but he binds himself to his code to try and find a better, more honorable way of living. That's one character with two very dramatically different story arches - just in the question of "Why do you have your code?"

Likewise, when a paladin falls, he or she shouldn't fall because of some mechanical whatsit or because the DM set a cunning trap. They should fall because of some sort of inner conflict, either with themselves or with their code. Or maybe their code clashes with itself! A dragonborn is going to be in trouble when he meets an actual dragon - by all accounts a god - and that god demands he shamefully attacks his own companions. Whatever he does, he's breaking one of his own ideals. That's not a moment to punish the character and strip away his goodies, it's a moment to get in some good, juicy roleplaying.

Besides, who thought it made sense to have temptation into the dark side make you weaker? That's just plain backwards.

 

[steeldragons]

I recall a code written on a thread here earlier where paladins were told "thou shalt be everywhere facing evil" among other things. People loved it. I found it vague. This does, after all, regulate PC behavior in a game.

This is much better.

Thank ye.

2. ... Strike with Righteousness and Truth against the forces of Evil.

Way too vague. When do you strike? What if you're busy going after another group of evildoers?

Well, prioritizing is always important, in-game as much as real life. If it is not something that can be taken care f "right away" then you (the PC) just have to sort out what's more pressing/important and come back to the other thing, if/when possible.

What sort of striking?

The kind that upholds law and justice as best you can. If there are authorities, a legal system, commonly accepted "local justice"...In most towns, for example, slaying a petty thief in the middle of the marketplace because you saw them swipe an apple (or even someone's coin purse) would, I think, be a bit of "overkill"/unnecessary. Call them out on it! Chase them down and try to drag them by the collar to the nearest town guardsman or constable's station, definitely fitting...by my codes.

If you "ping" an evil bartender who waters his beer, are you supposed to call the watch? And what can they do without proof? I'm going to assume murdering him is out of the question.

Good assumption.

But also, a bartender watering his beer is not going to *ping* (I assume you mean on the paladin's "detect-evil-o-meter" . A bartender poisoning the beer so he can loot his customers while they sleep in a coma like stupor? Yes. Keeping a secret meeting room for the evil reptile-god cult in his basement, most probably (unless he's acting under charm or coercion).

And, you answered your own question. Law and justice. Is there local authorites and legal system? Yes? Then follow that. Does that mean you can do nothing without proof? Then get proof. (Yay, Investigative side-adventure time!)

Just for example in my world: Yes. A Redstar Knight is known to be honor and oath-bound to always speak the truth. This does not, however mean that is all that is necessary to arrest and hold someone is the paladin's say-so. It holds a great deal of weight in people's minds/perceptions...the local guardsmen will unquestioningly take the paladin's assertion seriously...but it does not, in itself, warrant an arrest or conviction (nor warrant/allow for summary judgement on the paladin's part! She must speak the truth AND uphold the order of Law and Justice to the best of their ability. The code is not an "either/or" situation.)

I would suggest using the material in the parentheses instead of what you actually have written. Clarity is key here.

You are correct about clarity. Again, the whole point of this thread is to have/get DMs and players on the same page to avoid misunderstandings or misinterpretations in play.

I was just using flowery language to make it sound/go along with the other tenets I wrote. But, rest assured, all players are aware of the parenthesized text.

Hallelujah. A code that doesn't confuse law with order. Paladins have their own code, and it need not match with "civilian" or "secular" codes. Lots of alignment conflicts could have been avoided if only WotC had clearly said something like this.

Thanky. Yeah, seems very simple to me, but a lot of people, I guess, have difficulty with the distinction.

5. A Redstar Knight does not dishonor himself or Celradorn by attacking from behind. This is the way of cowards and thieves.

This, unfortunately, is vague. This is especially true of editions where there's no facing! Under what circumstances can you use stealth or other such tactics?

Doesn't seem vague to me at all. But ok...

I would generally say that paladins (particularly of Celradorn, and most "battle" related gods, I would think) find "stealth" dishonorable and, regardless of it being in their code, would prefer not to do it. It's not going to be the paladin of the group's idea to engage in stealthy tactics. But if that is what the group decides, I don't see a reason they can't "go along with it" every once in a while.

If you (or the DM) wants to be a real "letter of the code" kind of guy, the paladin could proudly stand his ground and demand the enemy "face his justice"...as a distraction for the rest of the group (who are hiding) to get in their surprise attacks.

Does that mean attempting to avoid an obviously superior force by hiding is going to get your paladinic status removed? No. Again, Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid.

A paladin that thinks it is a completely acceptable tactic to hide and try to make "surprise" attacks all of the time? Yeah, he's probably going to get a couple of celestial "hints"/warnings before a true "smackdown."

What about flanking?

What about it? My understanding of flanking is that you are at the side of the foe/the enemy...they are aware that you are there...causing momentary indecision or otherwise putting them at a disadvantage from one or both of your attacks. The enemy knows you are there, no harm no foul. You're not trying to backstab him! lol. (if you are, then we'd have an issue with the code.)

Or invisibly stabbing an opponent in the face?

Ermmmm, check your character sheet, Psi, are you sure it says "Paladin" and not "Thief"? lol.

This I would say is an absolute and big (and I believe completely obviously so by the terms of the tenet) "No-no."

I fully agree with this. A paladin should be accepting surrender and not committing torture. (Of course, this code says nothing about "false surrender", which is right. It's not a real surrender if it's not a real surrender.)

Certainly not. If you offer a foe surrender and mercy and then, when you turn to get the rope to bind them and take them back to town to meet their justice, they lunge at you with some hidden dagger they still had (or pick up their dropped axe and come at you or whatever), you absolutely have met your "required by the Code" behavior and are totally justified in parting head from shoulders.

Possibly the king-daddy of paladin code hate. Is there a reason a paladin can't lie to his enemies? If a paladin is discovered by cultists investigating their trove of evil magic items, I sure hope his answers to their questions aren't "..." or "I'm doing an inspection." They'd rather hit a villain in the face than lie to them, and that's also fatal if the villains outnumber them.

A paladin lying to his friends, his order or in a court case is another story entirely. There lying cannot be justified.

Again, a paladin living by a code of conduct is a person living by,with and for their ideals. It is not "ok" to lie sometimes because it happens to be convenient for you. Then in what way are people supposed to believe you speak the truth other times? Simply because you say so? But you can lie?

A code of conduct, particularly in the case of "extreme" alignments like Lawful Good, does not allow for "sometimes." Again, it is an IDEAL that is to be followed. Does that mean a paladin CAN'T lie? No, that's up to the player and then the consequences must be applied, fairly, by the GM.

Are you going to lose paladinic status because you lied to the evil cultist but ultimately thwarted their foul plot? No, probably not (well, not in my game, but this is where/why the DM/player need be on the same page).

Would a paladin who did so feel guilty and seek out, legitamate in-game, penance/atonement for their infraction? Yes, they should.

He acted against the code and he knowingly he did so. He should feel guilty and should DEFinitely want to "make amends" with his conscience, his deity and order as soon as possible...for his own sense of good and honor.

Now, I note that these are "paladins of Celradorn" and not necessarily "generic" paladins. But I thought this was supposed to be a code nearly any paladin could follow.

I believe they are. "Defend the weak. Promote Order and Justice. Stop evil. Be nice. Don't lie." all seem pretty basic and broad-stroked for any paladin to use.

I like this one a lot. Paladins don't have to be stupid or "never retreat". Even in cultures that venerated this kind of behavior (Rome and Japan, for instance) that was only a nice theory. So good job. I would recommend adding that section about "protecting their charge" to this tenet.

Thanks again. Good input.

So they're not prejudiced. Good

Yeah. I've found having this kind of thing in place is pretty necessary in a polytheistic world. Also, cuts down on the "holy wars" of "No my god's more LG. Nuh-uh, mine is!" ;P

--SD

 

[Hand of Evil]

For druids or Rangers or just adventures that know the great out doors

• Never approch a camp without announcment
• Never leave a five unattended
• Know the difference between live stock and free range
• Pass on road condintions and news to fellow travellers
• Never polute water holes

I think it is also important to define evil in games, as this is what is detected in the spell. Examples:

• cannibalism = evil
• mind control = evil
• slavery = evil
• worship of the god Gruumsh
• orcs, hobgoblins
• worship of the god Nerull

As for Padadin codes, I favor the Boy Scout as a model, it has a sogan!

[sblock]
Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:
•Duty to God and country,
•Duty to other people, and
•Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

------------------

Boy Scout Law

A Scout is:
•Trustworthy,
•Loyal,
•Helpful,
•Friendly,
•Courteous,
•Kind,
•Obedient,
•Cheerful,
•Thrifty,
•Brave,
•Clean,
•and Reverent.

--------------------

Boy Scout Motto

Be Prepared!

---------------------

Boy Scout Slogan

Do a Good Turn Daily!
[/sblock]

 

[steeldragons]

Hey Jonesy! Long time, no see. Hope all's well.

My problem with these sort of codes is that they are likely to end up being abused by the DM in loopholes which allow for situations where the paladin is 'forced to fall'. Sometimes even without the DM realizing it, because everything that the paladin does ends up having to be compared against the code, retroactively.

Well, I suppose that is possible. But it is equally possible (and from the DM side of the screen) the players are more apt to find and abuse loopholes.

This goes to the whole "trust of the table" concept. Your DM shouldn't purposely be looking to screw the players...and vice versa. Having an established/accepted code ni play is, in no way, license to be a jerk.

I suppose, many of my gaming experiences have had minimal alignment issues/arguments becuase I pretty much only gamed with friends. People that I got along with and had a, more or less, consistent set of values and perspective of the game world/setting and the "realistic" actions and attitudes of the characters within it.

I understand, in today's day and age, that is not always (or even "often") possible and players from all different areas and attitudes are at the same "table" (including the electronic ones). That being the case, it seems to me, this kind of standardized code of conduct (for alignment restricted characters) becomes even more important.

"Oh, according to this you can't disobay your superiors. And you were just issued a command which amounts to suicide. Would you like to play a fallen paladin, or roll a new character now?"

See above re: DM being a jerk. No code of conduct is going to correct this. But for most reasonable and mature players I think it is better than nothing/a good starting point for defining a character.

And even then these are subject to as much or more interpretation than the simple rule of doing good. Even a deceptively simple concept like mercy depends on what one means by it.

Precisely, hence the need to get it down on paper2/"in black and white" so everyone understands what that means. Interpretation is (and I'd go so far as to say, should be) allowed by the PCs.

Now, if their interpretation is consistently trying to push the boundaries (or worse, act in direct opposition to) the code, then there's an issue/case for the DM to examine and adjudicate.

First, "Um, you are starting to not feel the grace of your god quite as strongly."...possibly, "Using your power is taking a noticeable effort and longer to summon"...and, finally (attempting to heal with a Lay on hands, let's say) "You do not feel the presence of your god's grace. No matter how hard you pray/concentrate, the power is simply not coming to you."

--SD

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

A very interesting take on paladins:

We managed to capture a high priest of the cult, someone responsible for conducting the ritual in this part of the land. It turns out the ritual needed to be conducted at the same time in several parts of the kingdom at once, in order to deliver the maximum effect.

We need to know the other locations, or else all our efforts would have just saved one northern barony and not the whole land. He gave us no choice but to beat it out of him.

Sir Peter wanted no part of this: "If you're going to treat a man like some animal for the slaughter, then don't expect me to sit by and watch". He then stormed out, and let us carry on in our work.

We'd been at it hours, and we couldn't get the guy to crack. He just wouldn't tell us anything. He was covered in cuts, had lost a toe at our hands, was dripping in his own blood, but still won't give us want we needed. We were going to give up and try another method, when all of a sudden, our doorway darkens and in walks Sir Peter. He's wearing nothing but his tunic and pants, unarmed, bar for a half drank jug of some form of strong booze in hand.

In steps into the room and announces:

"If you're going to do this, do it right..."

He walks over to the bound cultist, tosses aside his bottle, lifts and chair and sits in front of the beaten man.

Sir Peter:

"I don't want to hurt you, I just need to know the locations of your brethren, then this can be all over for you, I will make sure you are safe and cared for."

Cultist:

"Ha! I know who you are, Sir Peter Fairgrave; kingdom breaker, runaway child, father slayer. You can't threaten me: I know what you are. Your order, your God won't allow you to lay your hands on me, otherwise you'll fall, and you won't be able to help a soul"

Sir Peter:

*sighs* "You seem to be under misconception about what I am, what I do. I am a paladin, that is true; but as a paladin I don't fear falling... I look forward to it"

The cultist shot a nervous look at the rest of the party, we were all looking at each other, not sure what was about to happen. The cultist opened his mouth to speak, but Sir Peter cut him off.

Sir Peter:

"As a paladin, I walk on a razor's edge. Not between good and evil, I could never be something like you, but between "law" and "justice". The "law" I follow doesn't permit me to harm you, but I could be "justified" in anything I did to you in order to save innocent lives. ANYTHING!"

"You don't know what it is like to be me. You don't know the pain of having to store all your anger, all your fury, all your sense of justice, and hold it inside you, all day every day for the rest of your life. Doing the right thing doesn't mean I get to stop all evil, I just get to trim it when it becomes overgrown. The path I walk is not about vengeance, or what's right; it's about moderation in the face of power, restraint and compassion for scum like you.

"This is why paladins don't fear falling. We don't spend all day looking for ways to prevent ourselves from doing evil and giving in to the darkness -- we actively seek it out. Every time we face evil, we ask ourselves, "is this the threat that I'm going to give it all up for? is this what I am going to give up my ability to help others in the future, in order to bring down now, is this the evil that I am willing to forsake my God and my power to stop?!".

At this point, he stands up suddenly and swings his arm against the chair he was sitting on. Sending it flying and shattered against a wall, he then kicks over the chair the cultist was sitting on, he leaps and straddles his chest, flinging him about for a few seconds in pure rage, before calming once more.

He looks the cultist straight in the face, both their noses just inches from each other.

"What you should be asking yourself now, what you really need to be thinking about, is: 'Is what I'm doing something that will make this guy want to fall?' Because you should know that once I fall, all those rules which protect you from me are gone. No longer will I be able to be stopped by you, or by my order, or by my God. If I give everything, and I mean give everything, I will never stop. If you escape me today, I will hunt you down and grab you into the pits of hell myself. Even if that means that I have to invoke the wrath of every demon in creation, just so they throw open a pit and drag me down where I stand, because when they do drag me down, I will make sure that my fists are wrapped firmly around your ankles and you go down with me. I want you to listen to me now, and I mean really listen, because Hell truly hath no fury like a paladin scorned."

"So I ask you, one last time: tell me where the other rituals are being held, or I swear to all on high that I will fall, and fall hard, just so I can show you what it is that paladin truly keeps his code in order to hold back..."

At this point the player, Chris, just stops talking and looks at us. We are all kind of stunned by his speech, naturally.

He just picks up a D20, looks at the DM and says "I wish to roll intimidate."

Original source: /tg/ - Traditional Games

 

[jonesy]

Hey Jonesy! Long time, no see. Hope all's well.

Keeping busy working and studying at the same time. If I didn't have a laptop I probably wouldn't be around at all.

This goes to the whole "trust of the table" concept. Your DM shouldn't purposely be looking to screw the players...and vice versa. Having an established/accepted code ni play is, in no way, license to be a jerk.

Sure, but sometimes it's not even about that. Or maybe it is, I'm not sure.

See, I've known DM's who would have treated a code like that as a contract, to the bitter letter. "This is what your character wanted and agreed to."

 

[howandwhy99]

Codes of conduct in my game are far more common for clerics, if simply because there tend to be more of them than sub-classes which need to be qualified for. Assassins, Paladins, Monks, and Druids can lose class abilities, but with atonement gain them back when they reaffirm their code. Clerics only lose a few spells, but really get replacements instead, so they aren't as hindered.

Player created is my suggestion to any DM on how to implement these, just like religions (which are simply group codes followed by many NPCs).

The only real infringement on these is their need to fit into the alignments already. If they are about lawfulness as defined by the rules, then they fall under Order. Ditto Neutrality and Chaos.

Examples of how someone running the game could define the alignments are altogether different than player created codes. For order we can go by constructive, ordered acts which result in more life and value in the world. Chaos would be the opposite tending to destructive, entropic actions. Neutrality is more about maintaining the status quo or not caring one way or the other about results for anyone other than one's self. This can be a bit disingenuous with so many lawful knight-type fighters, but halting entropic chaos agents with destructive acts could be said to end up a null value. The same occurs when orc tribes roaming the countryside by working together, they are not purely engaged in ordered actions as this bonding is only to cause greater destruction by doing so.

The above isn't too difficult to design for, if the designer keeps an eye on acts that result in a net loss and those that result in a net positive in the game world.

But for PC codes of conduct I would definitely go by player defined codes. Not only does this offer the players the chance to follow the order each wishes to, it also creates factions and culture in the world the DM doesn't need to. Plus it invests the players in the world as their decisions matter for as long as the campaign runs.

 

[Janx]

The point of a code of conduct is to make the character have to face situations where they intepret and apply the code. If the code was such that life was easy peasy, one is leading an unreflective life as a robot.

As to GMs who create no-win situations to cause the paladin to fall, that's probably a bad GM.

If the PC is trying to apply the code to the problem, then whatever they do is correct. When the PC abandons the code and rejects its tenets, that is when they fail.

for reference, here is a real Code, taken from this site, which alleges it is from the Song of Roland (circa 1098-1100AD):

• To fear God and maintain His Church
• To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
• To protect the weak and defenceless
• To give succour to widows and orphans
• To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
• To live by honour and for glory
• To despise pecuniary reward
• To fight for the welfare of all
• To obey those placed in authority
• To guard the honour of fellow knights
• To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
• To keep faith
• At all times to speak the truth
• To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
• To respect the honour of women
• Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
• Never to turn the back upon a foe

 

[Relique du Madde]

My thoughts about fantasy codes of conduct is this:

Unless everyone within the organization is expected to be literate, the code of conduct must be easy to memorize, recite, comprehend, and recall at a moments notice. If the list of items in the code is long enough that the least adept member of organization can not recall the majority of the code at any given moment's notice then the code maybe too long.

Remember, in times of struggle, a paladin can not afford to open his order's handbook and see if he is acting in accordance to his code of conduct, nor does he have time to enter into a philosophical debate about his every action. His code must be so ingrained into his being that all actions he undertakes are in accordance to the its will. Therefore, he must be able to explain to you how every action he commits is in accordance to that code and which of his order's tenants his deeds exemplifies without a moral, ethical, or intellectual quandary.

If the a paladin can not do this, then his code has failed him.