worlds and monsters is in my hands
- Thread starter kave99
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FourthBear
First Post
Klaus said:
If you don't mind that by mid-levels, PCs and NPC characters are going to be beating that Perform bonus ragged. "The Great" won't be able to win any Perform contests against even mid-level PCs or NPCs that keep Perform max ranked at all (let alone if they use feats or magic). So in Greyhawk or the Realms, if there was a kingdom wide contest, the only way Sharmahoc could rank anywhere is if none of the mid or higher level bards in the kingdom bothered to show up (bards noted to exist in the DMG standard community tables).
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Kamikaze Midget said:
You must have missed Wartorn in post #197 where he says
wartorn said:
FourthBear said:
And how is that a problem? I don't think it is wrong that people who dedicate their entire career to music and are so powerful that they can alter reality through song and music are among the best musicians in the world.
I would be more concerned if Ugoff the ork barbarian who never touched a musical instrument in his life would be a great musician (thats how it works in SAGA).
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If they're going to say "orcs are the greatest blacksmiths ever," I should get rules to support that in my game. Otherwise, they're telling me to make stuff up, which, again, sucks as a rule.
If they're going to say "dragons are bestial marauders," then they should mechanically BE bestial marauders, low on Int, high on Con, ready to melee-rumble, but also with great perception to lead them to prey.
It also takes time out of the middle of the game if I have to read a paragraph of prose to get to the business end of what, outside of combat, these things can do, whereas a quick reference to a skill or a feat or an alignment or a habitat/terrain or a specific noncombat ritual can communicate the idea much more effectively, and link to other mechanics that are shared between this creature and others.
There's also the issue of this not really being "fluff." It doesn't affect combat, but with things like the Social Encounter system being presented, noncombat doesn't just boil down to opposed skill checks.
But players will do much more with monsters than fight them.
And a monster's noncombat abilities give it a pre-packaged niche in the world that can be used and expanded on the fly. The designers can tell me where this mosnter was intended to go, and then I can put it there in an instant. If they don't tell me that, I have to do the work myself, which eats up time.
I don't know what social role I want them to have when I choose them out of the MM. I rely on the noncombat information to tell me, at a glance, what social role they could/do occupy. That +20 Religion might be useless for the BBEG's combat prowess, but it gives him a context that implies other relations that I can use on a moment's notice.
That's why all I'm doing is expressing a concern. I'm not condemning them yet, I'm just saying that I would, under these circumstances. And it appears, from the language they use and the direction the design is taking, that these circumstances are not entirely unlikely. So it's a valid concern to have and voice.
Klaus
First Post
With Perform +12, this musician can pull off great performances (DC 20, as defined in the PHB) without even trying (i.e., Taking 10). With the barest of efforts, he can make memorable performances (DC 25).Steely Dan said:
If you factor in a masterwork instrument and a four-man band aiding his check (in other words, the band works to make the frontman look great), you're looking at a +20 modifier. With the barest effort, that's enough to attract the attention of extraplanar beings (DC 30)!
Not bad for a 4th-level NPC with 4 hit points.
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Kamikaze Midget said:
3E Mind Flayers are a good example for this.
Their fluff says that they created huge empires consisting out of dominated slaves (and they still build their cities that way). but they lacked any dominate ability. They could only charm monsters and they charmed individuals are no slaves.
Klaus said:
Yeah, but still not Epic as our old Allan!
takasi
First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
I am not going to remember "+2 racial bonus to Jump, Climb and Craft" in a monster book. A little prose will make it easier though, especially if there's a little backstory that explains why they are such great blacksmiths, or what they have crafted.
And I am rarely building cultural qualities about of my campaign world in the middle of the game. I am, however, running combat in (almost) every game and often using stat blocks I'm unfamiliar with.
FourthBear
First Post
Derren said:
The problem that many people perceive is that in D&D, skill ranks are innately tied to level, which intimately links attack bonuses, save bonuses and many other bonuses to skill ranks. Because of this, you indeed get the phenomena as noted above that the most skilled person in any profession is always a combat and adventuring capable character. If this is reasonable to your world-building, that is fine. It would result in the world's greatest authors, rock stars, scientists and historians all having high levels and therefore being capable combatants and adventurers. Many world builders prefer not to tie skill ranks to level so tightly and therefore allowing the world's greatest painter not to be a high level Expert.
The obvious answer is that there is no reason to tie skill rank to level for NPCs or monsters. The whole reason skill rank in the PH are tied to level is because PC creation rules are designed to create starting PCs that are members of adventuring parties. It assumes that PCs using these rules will be part of typical D&D campaigns and be spending time overcoming combat and non-combat challenges along the way. It also assumes that there is some need to balance their relative skills against each other and the level appropriate challenges they face.
NPC generation and simulation should not be limited by any of these factors. An NPC who spends their entire life away from combat and adventuring situations should very well be able to have a Knowledge (History) that has no relation to their level. There is no need to require that NPCs be generated with a system created for entirely another purpose. If world-builders wish to create a world resembling many fantasy fictional worlds where the most highly skilled poet may be a sheltered person without all the trappings of high level, there is no need to use such a system.
