World's Largest Dungeon in actual play [Spoilers!]
- Thread starter haiiro
- Start date
BlueBlackRed
Explorer
rjs said:
Not my group. Not even close. They're just about to enter region I.
I guess I need to start reading...
There needs to be some kind of brain cramming machine like in The Matrix.
Instead of "I know Kung Fu!", it'd be "I know what and where the world eater is!"
Qwillion
First Post
Jim Pinto,
Sorry If I came off negative. I really am enjoying reading the book, I am really looking forward too the game.
A. I may just be venting my frustration at having to replace so many monsters in region A.
B. I am also trying to drop clues so that players feel like they are actually imerssed in the dungeon to help with thier suspension of disbelief. I want to make them feel like their is a grand story to be told. Helping to create a character driven story is a bit more difficult with a dungeon but It's looking like the best solution is to have sub-plot follow the players into the dungeon.
1. tight templating of rooms. you always know what to look for and where to find it.
Yes I love the fact that I can look at the summary of a room and it summeries its theme and how the room works. What you don't do Is template the region with what is going on. There is a minor summary but if it had been as "tight" as the templating of rooms then it would have been much better. It also could have used the same "tight" template for a summary of the dungeon, its themes and an over all story arch as a whole. A summary of a story arch that could take you through the "obvious" paths that you have talked about would have been really cool.
2. tactics and encounter conditions. without information like this, you've just got a list of monsters and dungeon dressings... in my opinion
The encoutner conditions are the best, I really enjoy them, as I believe they will make everything more dramatic. Some times I think the tactics could be a bit more dramatic but I am only just begining to get into the meat of it as I am summerizing room by room. Again this might be the fact that I am in Region A and there are only so many good tactics with a fendish darkmantle one can take before you get frustrated.
3. plots. some of these plot points are just amazing. some of writers took the ideas they were given and really expanded them into great concepts
yes and I agree but these are all plot points by region with few regions interacting with each other. Example the plot of Region E gives no nevermind to the plot of Region A. And thier is no plot for the dungeon as a whole. You have stated that you had this theme: you cannot kill evil but good can die off. Yet it seems everyone missed it completely, I can see it when I look really hard, and I actually get to read all the behind the scenes stuff. If so many readers did not see how hard is it going to be for a player to percieve it.
4. flexibility. there's almost nothing that can't be changed to suit your style. we didn't a trap or clue so important in region F that you couldn't escape without it.
Yes beign modular is an excellent selling point but most of the people I see are attempting to play this all the way though. I have just started in region A and the only "clue" at all is that there are tremors. Not a single npc knows what's really going on or why in the region much less of even a clue too the dungeon as a whole.
I can use lantern archons to fill people in but part of the joy of using proffesional off the shelf adventures is not having to do the work myself.
5. value. $.06 per encounter. enough said?
Yes, it is an excellent value. I still think it is the second best adventure I have ever puchased. (sorry I have run Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and untill I run this that will still be my favorite)
I do have to question that 5% of those encounters are exaclty the same, be they fiendish darkmantles or horde skeletons. Would a fiendish baboon rather than a darkmantle have been so much worse?
Again, thanks for an excellent book.
Jim Pinto,
Is there a list of monsters that were not used in the book? (excluding displacer beasts, beholders, sahaugin, githyanki, githzari, slaad, Illitiad, Yaun-ti etc..)
Sorry If I came off negative. I really am enjoying reading the book, I am really looking forward too the game.
A. I may just be venting my frustration at having to replace so many monsters in region A.
B. I am also trying to drop clues so that players feel like they are actually imerssed in the dungeon to help with thier suspension of disbelief. I want to make them feel like their is a grand story to be told. Helping to create a character driven story is a bit more difficult with a dungeon but It's looking like the best solution is to have sub-plot follow the players into the dungeon.
1. tight templating of rooms. you always know what to look for and where to find it.
Yes I love the fact that I can look at the summary of a room and it summeries its theme and how the room works. What you don't do Is template the region with what is going on. There is a minor summary but if it had been as "tight" as the templating of rooms then it would have been much better. It also could have used the same "tight" template for a summary of the dungeon, its themes and an over all story arch as a whole. A summary of a story arch that could take you through the "obvious" paths that you have talked about would have been really cool.
2. tactics and encounter conditions. without information like this, you've just got a list of monsters and dungeon dressings... in my opinion
The encoutner conditions are the best, I really enjoy them, as I believe they will make everything more dramatic. Some times I think the tactics could be a bit more dramatic but I am only just begining to get into the meat of it as I am summerizing room by room. Again this might be the fact that I am in Region A and there are only so many good tactics with a fendish darkmantle one can take before you get frustrated.
3. plots. some of these plot points are just amazing. some of writers took the ideas they were given and really expanded them into great concepts
yes and I agree but these are all plot points by region with few regions interacting with each other. Example the plot of Region E gives no nevermind to the plot of Region A. And thier is no plot for the dungeon as a whole. You have stated that you had this theme: you cannot kill evil but good can die off. Yet it seems everyone missed it completely, I can see it when I look really hard, and I actually get to read all the behind the scenes stuff. If so many readers did not see how hard is it going to be for a player to percieve it.
4. flexibility. there's almost nothing that can't be changed to suit your style. we didn't a trap or clue so important in region F that you couldn't escape without it.
Yes beign modular is an excellent selling point but most of the people I see are attempting to play this all the way though. I have just started in region A and the only "clue" at all is that there are tremors. Not a single npc knows what's really going on or why in the region much less of even a clue too the dungeon as a whole.
I can use lantern archons to fill people in but part of the joy of using proffesional off the shelf adventures is not having to do the work myself.
5. value. $.06 per encounter. enough said?
Yes, it is an excellent value. I still think it is the second best adventure I have ever puchased. (sorry I have run Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and untill I run this that will still be my favorite)
I do have to question that 5% of those encounters are exaclty the same, be they fiendish darkmantles or horde skeletons. Would a fiendish baboon rather than a darkmantle have been so much worse?
Again, thanks for an excellent book.
Jim Pinto,
Is there a list of monsters that were not used in the book? (excluding displacer beasts, beholders, sahaugin, githyanki, githzari, slaad, Illitiad, Yaun-ti etc..)
BlueBlackRed said:
*cackles*
BBR, let me know if you have any questions. I have some 'cut' material (not much, mind) from I I keep meaning to send out for posting, but the fellow who originally asked hasn't dropped me a line. In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing accounts of the first group to reach the Halls of Flesh...
jim pinto
First Post
Qwillion said:
i think its more obvious that you might believe, but more importantly, it shouldn't really affect the PCs until you want it to.... have something really vile, like longtail or his imp come back to life a few days later as a wight if you really want to drive home the point.
Qwillion said:
yeah. well. we couldn't have predicted that so many people were going to play it end to end
john zinser and i earnestly believed about 5% of the people would use this way
and the rest would pillage the book for ideas.
lastly, the book is modular, so you can move regions around, skip some, or do whatever you want. if you're having trouble with an over-arching plot, or a character driven story, there's plenty of advice on this thread and i'm about to write another post about the plot, so sit back and get comfy
Qwillion said:
sure... if you want a game that is in no way tailored to your style or the player's style
this is why published modules don't sell well. the hook is bad, or the themes don't fit your campaign, or the writer made a "pull by the nose" adventure and your PCs are vehemently opposed to those kinds of tricks.
i've never purchased an adventure that i didn't have to tweak, but if an adventure has solid combat tactics, there's no reason to change those... hence my comment about what is solid about the book.
okay, now i'm just soap-boxing and i hate doing that.
let me finish with this... i took everything bad i'd ever seen in dungeon crawl books and threw them away.
i read undermountain, dragon mountain, temple of elemental evil, and ruins of myth drannor
i looked at all the bad... the lack of organization, the failure to template anything, the inability of the writers to make even the smallest rooms interesting unless they were inspired, and in the case of dragon mountain, the inability to even fill the rooms.
i looked at all the good... lots of flavor, great villains, room after room of monsters, etc.
yes... combat in 3.5 is slow, but we wanted to capture that keep on the borderlands feeling of killing orcs in one room and going next door to kill more orcs.
without ignoring the fact that monsters next door to one another might be able to hear through the walls.
Qwillion said:
haven't read it... is it that good? did you ever read my rant in shadis magazine about the original? oh man did it stink... i can't believe its a classic.
Qwillion said:
no .. just silly
much like a dire badger...
Qwillion said:
we used every MONSTER from the SRD... since those creatures you mentioned are not in the SRD, we did not use them... i think you meant to type kuo-toa... sahuagin ARE in the SRD
carrion crawlers, umber hulks, and your list are product identity copyright to wizards of the coast.
we didn't touch those.
ick.
Just to go off on a tangent - I've just started a comedy thread over at the www.rpgmp3.com forums called "101 Uses For The Worlds Largest Dungeon Book". Please join in and help us get to 101 uses!
Qwillion
First Post
I finished handout #2 based on Jim Pinto's kind answer to the question of how the titan Breyes died.
http://www.callofthehorn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166
post #2
Yes a fiendish baboon may be silly, but a baboon can be put to very good use, A excellent example is the movie The Ghost and the Darkness.
"we used every MONSTER from the SRD... since those creatures you mentioned are not in the SRD, we did not use them... i think you meant to type kuo-toa... sahuagin ARE in the SRD"
Very true ment kuo-toa.
However, you weasle worded it that one dinosaur covers all dinos. I am just trying to get a list of the sub catagory monsters you did not use. What Dinosaurs, Celestials, Giants, Dragons, Devils, Demons, Fiends, Animals and Vermin did not make the cut.
I am going to try to find a place in the dungeon for the non-licenced creatures in the dungeon and the sub catagory monsters. (I have the book of templetes and the advanced bestiary so I am sure I can shrink some down to size to fit in the dungeon some place)
Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
The return is Bruce R Cordell's masterpiece. It has story, action, role-play, puzzles, themes, hooks, leads and it just goes on. The only weakness I have found is that players can ignore the initial plot hook if they wish, but Bruce makes the hook a mystery, drawing the players in with natural curiosity. It's subtle and methodical, pick up a used copy and read it.
"sure... if you want a game that is in no way tailored to your style or the player's style"
Tweaking a adventure is one thing, but rewriting is another. I understand the idea of making something cool first but then you are supposed to go back and make sense of it.
-Having to rewrite what an average intellegent creature knows as to why he is marching out to the middle of nowhere? Even if he gets it completely wrong he should have some idea.
-Why there is no logical reason for a one way opaque wall of force is in an obscure section of the dungeon but the doors work fine for no reason other than playability. (oh wait it's magic, well then who created the magic and for what purpose) it's cool but again no one bothered to make sense of it.
-Having to rewrite how xp is awarded rather than the adventure being written with the rules in mind (It goes without saying that if the xp awarded in a section by CR is wrong then the tresure awarded by CR is going to be wrong too but this is not addressed and I can only hope the amount of treasure per section is correct for the suggested wealth of character at level x)
-Being told that druids only work in forests rather than sugessting the idea of using Gray Druids.
-Being told to not allow basic spells rather than actually having the monsters in the dungeons, rather than adapting monsters to their use or even adapting the dungeon to thier use. Heck I would rather have seen sections of the dungeon where certain spells failed to work than being told as a GM to tell a sorcerer he can't have the spell. (yes a gm's job is to say no, but it's designers job to design with the rules of the game in mind. )
-Dealing with the prescense of wizards by saying they get hosed and suggesting a core class not be used , rather than having the dungeon provide caches of scrolls, a reclusive wizard mentor who just wants to do his resarch but loves to trade spells, providing a single new spell (I mean you could have refrenced a AEG book and stated a subsitute if you don't have that book. heck the suggested spell could have been in a web enchancement.)
-I agree with the idea of not having children around to slaughter, it's cool, but again you fail to address the logic of it. We dont' want children! Ok, so the dungeon prevents breeding makes sense. but we have poplulation problem then. The dungeon does not let a creature die of old age, disease and minor injury can be dealt with by a few low to medium level clerics in a single section. And the major population that revitalizes it when it dwindles can come from outside sources like the derro and the elves. It may not be perfect but you at least attempt to have some suspension of disbelief.
I tweak adventures without thinking about it, I am an opinonated fellow. My style is probably radically different from others. If I have a bad day, or I don't have time to do the extra work I want to be able to run it as is and make those changes on the fly.
Looking back at this I feel like I am going all negative again.
So I will talk about some things it does well.
-Encounter conditions: this section inspireed me to come up with encoutner conditions of my own.
-Room layouts: I like it so much I will probably write any room I ever create in this format and wish the industry as a whole would follow it.
-Scaling: what is really excellent about this is that the scaling is always some thing that you can do on the fly, it's not add a template or advance the creature to HD X.
-Story by region: Other than Region A every story in the dungeon is original and very dramaitc.
-Role-play: I love that monsters will sit down and have a chat with you, they are treated with having the intelligence they possess.
-Action: not all of the action in the dungeon comes down to combat, I like the idea of chase sceens and leaping over rivers of lava etc...
-3 years of gaming: I will have a ready to play game for the next three years that I can spend my time tweaking, cheering, and complaining about
I would not be complaining if i did not care so much
http://www.callofthehorn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166
post #2
Yes a fiendish baboon may be silly, but a baboon can be put to very good use, A excellent example is the movie The Ghost and the Darkness.
"we used every MONSTER from the SRD... since those creatures you mentioned are not in the SRD, we did not use them... i think you meant to type kuo-toa... sahuagin ARE in the SRD"
Very true ment kuo-toa.
However, you weasle worded it that one dinosaur covers all dinos. I am just trying to get a list of the sub catagory monsters you did not use. What Dinosaurs, Celestials, Giants, Dragons, Devils, Demons, Fiends, Animals and Vermin did not make the cut.
I am going to try to find a place in the dungeon for the non-licenced creatures in the dungeon and the sub catagory monsters. (I have the book of templetes and the advanced bestiary so I am sure I can shrink some down to size to fit in the dungeon some place)
Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
The return is Bruce R Cordell's masterpiece. It has story, action, role-play, puzzles, themes, hooks, leads and it just goes on. The only weakness I have found is that players can ignore the initial plot hook if they wish, but Bruce makes the hook a mystery, drawing the players in with natural curiosity. It's subtle and methodical, pick up a used copy and read it.
"sure... if you want a game that is in no way tailored to your style or the player's style"
Tweaking a adventure is one thing, but rewriting is another. I understand the idea of making something cool first but then you are supposed to go back and make sense of it.
-Having to rewrite what an average intellegent creature knows as to why he is marching out to the middle of nowhere? Even if he gets it completely wrong he should have some idea.
-Why there is no logical reason for a one way opaque wall of force is in an obscure section of the dungeon but the doors work fine for no reason other than playability. (oh wait it's magic, well then who created the magic and for what purpose) it's cool but again no one bothered to make sense of it.
-Having to rewrite how xp is awarded rather than the adventure being written with the rules in mind (It goes without saying that if the xp awarded in a section by CR is wrong then the tresure awarded by CR is going to be wrong too but this is not addressed and I can only hope the amount of treasure per section is correct for the suggested wealth of character at level x)
-Being told that druids only work in forests rather than sugessting the idea of using Gray Druids.
-Being told to not allow basic spells rather than actually having the monsters in the dungeons, rather than adapting monsters to their use or even adapting the dungeon to thier use. Heck I would rather have seen sections of the dungeon where certain spells failed to work than being told as a GM to tell a sorcerer he can't have the spell. (yes a gm's job is to say no, but it's designers job to design with the rules of the game in mind. )
-Dealing with the prescense of wizards by saying they get hosed and suggesting a core class not be used , rather than having the dungeon provide caches of scrolls, a reclusive wizard mentor who just wants to do his resarch but loves to trade spells, providing a single new spell (I mean you could have refrenced a AEG book and stated a subsitute if you don't have that book. heck the suggested spell could have been in a web enchancement.)
-I agree with the idea of not having children around to slaughter, it's cool, but again you fail to address the logic of it. We dont' want children! Ok, so the dungeon prevents breeding makes sense. but we have poplulation problem then. The dungeon does not let a creature die of old age, disease and minor injury can be dealt with by a few low to medium level clerics in a single section. And the major population that revitalizes it when it dwindles can come from outside sources like the derro and the elves. It may not be perfect but you at least attempt to have some suspension of disbelief.
I tweak adventures without thinking about it, I am an opinonated fellow. My style is probably radically different from others. If I have a bad day, or I don't have time to do the extra work I want to be able to run it as is and make those changes on the fly.
Looking back at this I feel like I am going all negative again.
So I will talk about some things it does well.
-Encounter conditions: this section inspireed me to come up with encoutner conditions of my own.
-Room layouts: I like it so much I will probably write any room I ever create in this format and wish the industry as a whole would follow it.
-Scaling: what is really excellent about this is that the scaling is always some thing that you can do on the fly, it's not add a template or advance the creature to HD X.
-Story by region: Other than Region A every story in the dungeon is original and very dramaitc.
-Role-play: I love that monsters will sit down and have a chat with you, they are treated with having the intelligence they possess.
-Action: not all of the action in the dungeon comes down to combat, I like the idea of chase sceens and leaping over rivers of lava etc...
-3 years of gaming: I will have a ready to play game for the next three years that I can spend my time tweaking, cheering, and complaining about
I would not be complaining if i did not care so much
BlueBlackRed
Explorer
Jim Hague said:*cackles*
BBR, let me know if you have any questions. I have some 'cut' material (not much, mind) from I I keep meaning to send out for posting, but the fellow who originally asked hasn't dropped me a line. In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing accounts of the first group to reach the Halls of Flesh...
I'll take whatever extra info you're willing to throw at me (figuratively or literally - your choice).
From the little I've read, It's going to be a slimy & nasty place. A place where dried out Jello flops off the wall if disturbed & the floors are coated with a variety of bubbling muck, slime, and that stuff my wife made for dinner yesterday. A constant stream of disgusting creatures lurk in the passages waiting for a convenient meal.
...I think it had lemon & chicken in it...
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