Worlds of Design: Magic vs. Technology

In connection with my discussion about differentiating science fiction and fantasy, here’s a related question: How do we tell what’s magic, and what’s technology, especially in light of A. C. Clarke’s famous maxim?

In connection with my discussion about differentiating science fiction and fantasy, here’s a related question: How do we tell what’s magic, and what’s technology, especially in light of A. C. Clarke’s famous maxim?

steampunk-laboratory-4888765_960_720.jpg

Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Arthur C. Clarke
Having a strong grasp of differences between magic and technology is useful to both role-playing game designers and to game masters. Sometimes it's hard to say what the difference may be.

A Matter of Knowledge​

My take is that the familiar or knowable tends to be technology, and the unfamiliar or unknowable tends to be magic. Technology and science aren't quite the same thing: technology is applied science. But here we'll speak of them together.

Keep in mind, with our current technology we could reproduce many of the miracles that any particular set of religionists are said to have witnessed. Those are magic to the religion, yet we could use technology.

Magic has an air of mystery that technology does not (or shouldn’t, anyway). Someone can explain how tech works. That's rare in magic, magic just IS.

Does technology require machinery? To create it, perhaps; to use it, I don't think so.

Novelist Brandon Sanderson's magic systems have rules and bases, but then get to the "black box" stage: "this works because it does, we don't know why or how." Science attempts to understand the black box, tries to keep working deeper and deeper into "why". Magic systems rarely bother. Perhaps that is the fundamental difference between magic and technology: we understand why technology works, but no one really understands why magic works, it just does.

In a game, magic inevitably becomes "hard" to the extent that the rules of the game must explain exactly how things work. Yet heavy reliance on the "black box" is still there.

If you’ve ever read a tome purporting to be about real-world alchemy (yes, they do exist), you've seen the author trying to turn alchemy into a kind of technology with rational explanation, but entirely BSing it—a bogus "explanation" amounting to "it just is" if not "it's magic."

Isaac Newton famously said, "if I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" (previous scientists). Technology tends to derive from previous technology. Magic frequently just happens through "mystic discoveries."

Mass Production​

Are everyday items, items that are technology in our contemporary world, producing many of the same effects through magic? So which is it?

Mass production implies technology. Individual production implies pre-technology (which can include magic). Obviously, we had individual production before the Industrial Revolution, but I nevertheless regard mass production as a sign of technology, not magic. (Of course, we can conceive of a magical world where mass production exists: but is that natural, or forced by the creator of that world?

The Frequency of Magic​

How often do you encounter someone who can cast magic spells/make magic (as opposed to use a magic item)? How often do you encounter someone who can create magic items? For that matter, how hard is it to make magic items? (I'm reminded of the vast number of potions cheaply produced in the original version of Pathfinder. This "smells of" technology even though it is magic.)

If magic includes an air of mystery, then is anything that is commonplace not magic, even if it is mass production of potions?

Star Wars: Magic or Technology?​

Many call Star Wars science fantasy. The Force, and light sabers, are mysterious, unknown, and to an extent unknowable (despite the "midichlorians"). Some of the technology is "indistinguishable from magic," such as the instantaneous communication throughout the galaxy (that is nevertheless easy to jam). I'd call Star Wars magic, tacked onto a more or less science fiction setting.

Knowledge vs. Familiarity​

In the end, familiarity is less important than whether something is knowable. Knowable as in, understanding what happens to make the black box work. If it's mysterious, something we don't think can be figured out, we tend to think of it as magic. If we think it can be figured out (even if it has not been, yet), it is more likely technology.

Your Turn: Where do you draw the line between magic and technology in your campaigns?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

embee

Lawyer by day. Rules lawyer by night.
I'm reminded of the Fire of Orthanc from The Two Towers, referred to as "Blasting Fire" (in the film adaptation, Wormtongue asks what kind of sorcery can induce fire from stone).

Obviously, we, the readers/viewers know that it is gunpowder. Perhaps we even know that it is saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur.

Medievalesque RPGs, being what they are, have (or can have) a large combat component and there is a large pool of technology to pull from from those eras. What's saltpeter? Where would people in such a campaign even get it? The answer is simple. It can be mined or harvested from bat guano. It's squarely within the realm of a traditional campaign.

Those older folk here don't even have to comb through WIkipedia. We can just think back 20 years. Add fuel to fertilizer and you can blow up a building. A very good resource for what is possible is a book called "Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World" by Adrienne Mayor. It's a fast, fun, and informative read on just what was possible back then.

Naptha was used as a weapon in antiquity. Apropos of the last day of Hanukkah, it's described in the book of II Maccabees, which tells how a "thick water" was put on a sacrifice at the time of Nehemiah and when the sun shone it caught fire. It adds that "those around Nehemiah termed this 'Nephthar', which means Purification, but it is called Nephthaei by the many."

Arguably, you could have nukes in a medieval setting. Uranium is mined. I'm not saying that there would be MOABs falling from the sky but there certainly could be a dirty bomb being wielded by some BBEG.

Of course, all of this falls under the middle ground rubric of "alchemy."

Alchemy is a great way to stealthily put modern "technology" into an older setting. Want to clone someone? Alchemy! Want Frankenstein but without magic? Alchemy!

Even the most stripped down settings can have "technology." The Wheel of Pain could be a mill. Or it could be a dynamo.

I would possibly draw the line at laser pistols. But even then, does that mean you can't can laser pistols? I don't think so. Expedition To The Barrier Peaks proves that. One of D&D's most iconic villain races are space-faring aliens from the future.

There is no line between magic and technology and I don't believe that there should be Sithian prohibitions against traditionally "sci-fi" tropes. Be creative. Odds are pretty good that the shiny thing you think is modern technology was certainly possible in even the oldest of settings.
 

BookTenTiger

He / Him
Once our group was fighting a big storm elemental and we asked if lightning rods existed in the world. We got a resounding NO from the DM.

A few adventures later we wound up in the Underdark, in a city that had the following magic technologies: trains, electric lights, holograms...

We still joke that all those things exist in the campaign world, but there are NO LIGHTNING RODS.
 

embee

Lawyer by day. Rules lawyer by night.
Once our group was fighting a big storm elemental and we asked if lightning rods existed in the world. We got a resounding NO from the DM.

A few adventures later we wound up in the Underdark, in a city that had the following magic technologies: trains, electric lights, holograms...

We still joke that all those things exist in the campaign world, but there are NO LIGHTNING RODS.

Did kites exist? Did string exist? Did keys exist?

Franklin's Statement

Philadelphia, October 19, 1752

As frequent Mention is made in the News Papers from Europe, of the Success of the Philadelphia Experiment for drawing the Electric Fire from Clouds by Means of pointed Rods of Iron erected on high Buildings, &c. it may be agreeable to the Curious to be inform'd, that the same Experiment has succeeded in Philadelphia, tho' made in a different and more easy Manner, which any one may try, as follows.

Make a small Cross of two light Strips of Cedar, the Arms so long as to reach to the four Corners of a large thin Silk Handkerchief when extended; tie the Corners of the Handkerchief to the Extremities of the Cross, so you have the Body of a Kite; which being properly accommodated with a Tail, Loop and String, will rise in the Air, like those made of Paper; but this being of Silk is fitter to bear the Wet and Wind of a Thunder Gust without tearing. To the Top of the upright Stick of the Cross is to be fixed a very sharp pointed Wire, rising a Foot or more above the Wood. To the End of the Twine, next the Hand, is to be tied a silk Ribbon, and where the Twine and the silk join, a Key may be fastened. This Kite is to be raised when a Thunder Gust appears to be coming on, and the Person who holds the String must stand within a Door, or Window, or under some Cover, so that the Silk Ribbon may not be wet; and Care must be taken that the Twine does not touch the Frame of the Door or Window. As soon as any of the Thunder Clouds come over the Kite, the pointed Wire will draw the Electric Fire from them, and the Kite, with all the Twine, will be electrified, and the loose Filaments of the Twine will stand out every Way, and be attracted by an approaching Finger. And when the Rain has wet the Kite and Twine, so that it can conduct the Electric Fire freely, you will find it stream out plentifully from the Key on the Approach of your Knuckle. At this Key the Phial may be charg'd; and from Electric Fire thus obtain'd, Spirits may be kindled, and all the other Electric Experiments be perform'd, which are usually done by the Help of a rubbed Glass Globe or Tube; and thereby the Sameness of the Electric Matter with that of Lightning compleatly demonstrated.

Your DM failed a DC5 History check.
 

nevin

Hero
In connection with my discussion about differentiating science fiction and fantasy, here’s a related question: How do we tell what’s magic, and what’s technology, especially in light of A. C. Clarke’s famous maxim?



Having a strong grasp of differences between magic and technology is useful to both role-playing game designers and to game masters. Sometimes it's hard to say what the difference may be.

A Matter of Knowledge​

My take is that the familiar or knowable tends to be technology, and the unfamiliar or unknowable tends to be magic. Technology and science aren't quite the same thing: technology is applied science. But here we'll speak of them together.

Keep in mind, with our current technology we could reproduce many of the miracles that any particular set of religionists are said to have witnessed. Those are magic to the religion, yet we could use technology.

Magic has an air of mystery that technology does not (or shouldn’t, anyway). Someone can explain how tech works. That's rare in magic, magic just IS.

Does technology require machinery? To create it, perhaps; to use it, I don't think so.

Novelist Brandon Sanderson's magic systems have rules and bases, but then get to the "black box" stage: "this works because it does, we don't know why or how." Science attempts to understand the black box, tries to keep working deeper and deeper into "why". Magic systems rarely bother. Perhaps that is the fundamental difference between magic and technology: we understand why technology works, but no one really understands why magic works, it just does.

In a game, magic inevitably becomes "hard" to the extent that the rules of the game must explain exactly how things work. Yet heavy reliance on the "black box" is still there.

If you’ve ever read a tome purporting to be about real-world alchemy (yes, they do exist), you've seen the author trying to turn alchemy into a kind of technology with rational explanation, but entirely BSing it—a bogus "explanation" amounting to "it just is" if not "it's magic."

Isaac Newton famously said, "if I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants" (previous scientists). Technology tends to derive from previous technology. Magic frequently just happens through "mystic discoveries."

Mass Production​

Are everyday items, items that are technology in our contemporary world, producing many of the same effects through magic? So which is it?

Mass production implies technology. Individual production implies pre-technology (which can include magic). Obviously, we had individual production before the Industrial Revolution, but I nevertheless regard mass production as a sign of technology, not magic. (Of course, we can conceive of a magical world where mass production exists: but is that natural, or forced by the creator of that world?

The Frequency of Magic​

How often do you encounter someone who can cast magic spells/make magic (as opposed to use a magic item)? How often do you encounter someone who can create magic items? For that matter, how hard is it to make magic items? (I'm reminded of the vast number of potions cheaply produced in the original version of Pathfinder. This "smells of" technology even though it is magic.)

If magic includes an air of mystery, then is anything that is commonplace not magic, even if it is mass production of potions?

Star Wars: Magic or Technology?​

Many call Star Wars science fantasy. The Force, and light sabers, are mysterious, unknown, and to an extent unknowable (despite the "midichlorians"). Some of the technology is "indistinguishable from magic," such as the instantaneous communication throughout the galaxy (that is nevertheless easy to jam). I'd call Star Wars magic, tacked onto a more or less science fiction setting.

Knowledge vs. Familiarity​

In the end, familiarity is less important than whether something is knowable. Knowable as in, understanding what happens to make the black box work. If it's mysterious, something we don't think can be figured out, we tend to think of it as magic. If we think it can be figured out (even if it has not been, yet), it is more likely technology.

Your Turn: Where do you draw the line between magic and technology in your campaigns?
I think it depends on the game. Ive been in traveller games with alien tech that was unknowable. Ive used things like that in gamma world. Pathfinder has basically made magic into a completely knowable system that to me feels more like science than magic. i think the Google has made the last couple of generations expect that they should know everything, or at least be able to look it up and that has greatly diminished "Magic " in RP games. New systems try to explain magic much the same way star wars gave us Midiclorens. Cool but knowing how everything works makes it boring and mundane
 

Third Clarke's law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

---

Science is the opposite of the ocultism. The ocultism tells about special secrets only a special group can know. Science is about knownledge what can be shared by everybody.

Mage: the sorcerer's crusade, by White Wolf, was a fabulous game about science vs magic.

My own challenge as worldbuilder is how to allow firearms and magic-tek but keeping the balance power. If magic allows a disk to spin then we can create an automobile, and this means a war charriot with motor causing the end of the chilvary.

Other matter is not only the magic vs the gunpowder, but knights vs gunslingers. Spellcaster can create new low-level magic tricks against the firearms, for example a piece of ectoplasm to block canons, or illusory magic as smoke grenades, or magic to summon swarns or mind-control to use warbeasts against the musketeers. But if magic becomes powerful against firearms then the classes about hand-to-hand combat would be forgotten too soon. Who would play the barbarian, the paladin or the monk? It would be as the heroes from Diablo or Warcraft against the shooters of Overwatch or Fortnite.
 

Jeff Carpenter

Adventurer
Once our group was fighting a big storm elemental and we asked if lightning rods existed in the world. We got a resounding NO from the DM.

I played in a game once where I wanted to buy a grappling hook and was told they hadn't been invented

Sure you could buy plate armor and crossbows, but a hook on a rope? Nah to advanced.

The guy just wanted to make us climb the wall with a skill roll versus using a tool. Needless to say I didn't play another game with this bozo
 


jasper

Rotten DM
....Magic frequently just happens through "mystic discoveries.".......
Professor Bunsen Honeydew," Here a Hogwarts school of magic we are on the cutting edge of magic and theory. See my student assistant Beaker will show you."
Beaker," Wingardium Leviosa "
Professor, "See my assistant can fly around the room. WATCH THE FAN!"
Beaker, "MEM!" Thud!
Professor Bunsen Honeydew, "Obliviate!"

Professor Bunsen Honeydew, " Now for our next experiment my assistant will be turn in Ava Gardena with the charming curse. Avada Kedavra, OH DEAR! Well that all the time we have here at Hogwarts labs. "
 

trs31

Explorer
When Clarke said any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, it was not the same as saying that any sufficiently advanced technology is magic. One way to distinguish between the two in your game is to take the position that, however similar their effects are, the two are fundamentally different things. Technology sits squarely in the realm of the physical (i.e. it works on the principles or laws of physics). Magic however could be described as being squarely in the realm of the Spiritual. i.e. Magic works according to "spiritual laws" not physical ones.

In a world like this Magic relies on the belief of the user (and maybe those around them as well), not just that it will work but that it should work. Spiritual or magical laws such as the law of contagion ("this object once belonged to the target of my spell") and similarity ("this wax figure looks like the target of my spell") are thus related to a belief that they "sort of make sense" rather than being hard and fast rules. This makes magic "unknowable" in that it does not behave the way we would expect technology to. It is not something that can be reproduced in exactly the same way each time under experimental conditions.

I've seen this sort of explanation used more often in contemporary fantasy settings (I'm thinking particularly of DC's Hellblazer comics, but there are lots of examples) than in medieval fantasy where, because of the relative absence of technology, there is less of a need to define the difference. However, while this approach works well for story telling games (where magic's job is often to fulfil fate's plan) it can be a pain in more mechanically heavy role-playing games where most players want their spell to do the same thing each time and not be held hostage to "fate", "karma" or the whims of the GM.
 

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