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Worlds of Design: The Lost Art of Running Away

How often does an adventuring party avoid an encounter, even run away from one? This used to be common in earlier versions of the game, but less so now. What changed?

How often does an adventuring party avoid an encounter, even run away from one? This used to be common in earlier versions of the game, but less so now. What changed?

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.
Run away, run away!” King Arthur, fleeing the carnivorous rabbit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Do you ever have your character run away in video games? In most video games, because there's the "save game" mode, there's no incentive to run away. Try to beat the enemy, and if that doesn't work, respawn and either try again or wait until you're stronger. You can't do that as easily in tabletop role-playing games, where if you die, you die. (Well, most of the time . . .)

On the other hand, players from my campaign have been struck by how seldom other gaming groups actually gather intelligence, or run away. They'd learned not to fight every fight, not to jump on every random encounter, not to push beyond their limits while relying on the GM to bail them out. Fighting every encounter becomes habit with some players, to the point that they may characterize a too-tough encounter a GM failure, not their failure to recognize when they should bail out (or not even start a fight).

This is exacerbated by GMs who, if players won't take on an encounter NOW, will not let them take it on later when they're better prepared. In my opinion, this encourages foolish choices in a tactical-style game. It's OK when you play a storytelling game, where characters aren't really in danger unless the story requires it.

Perhaps another reason why running away is uncommon, is that there's work involved. Avoiding a too-tough encounter requires good scouting as well as good intelligence-gathering (such as interrogating prisoners). But poor scouting is not confined to RPGs; it was a characteristic of many ancient and medieval armies. Entire armies could be ambushed because of poor scouting (as Romans at Lake Trasimene by Hannibal). Roman and Macedonian armies at the Battle of Cynoscephalae marched along with a ridge in between, unaware of their immediate proximity despite earlier skirmishes near Pherae, until someone went atop the ridge and spotted the enemy.

I think part of succeeding, in military terms especially, should be knowing when NOT to fight. Think about combat odds from "Always tell me the Odds." If you recognize how dangerous combat can be, and avoid the most dangerous when you can ("run away"), you're actually helping out your GM, who has the difficult task of making combat feel dangerous without making it too dangerous!

Of course, in earlier editions of the game, one of the most exciting adventures was where you got lost. Then it's extra smart to avoid fighting. Perhaps if parties got lost more often, they’d be less in the habit of fighting everything. So what can a GM do to encourage players to avoid fighting what they should not?
  • Emphasize the mission. A random encounter along the way may be worth avoiding simply because it doesn't move the mission forward. Which brings us to...
  • Give mission-based XP rather than XP for "monsters" killed. If you give XP for every encounter regardless of relevance to the mission, many players are going to fight every encounter just for the XP.
  • Let interrogation yield useful information. Not every time, of course, but often enough that players will take prisoners, and even organize cutting-out expeditions to capture someone, in order to gather information. If interrogation never works, who's going to bother with prisoners?
  • Don't let adventure publisher control how you GM the adventure. Modules tend to assume the party will fight whatever it encounters. You don't need to do it that way.
  • Or at worst, let the party get their butts well and truly kicked a few times, and they might decide to pick and choose their battles.
My question to readers: how often does the party run away in your campaign?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
Oh, of course you ran away all the time... except, well, you almost never needed to. Sure, the random encounter tables in the DMG weren't level based, but the random tables in every single module certainly were.

You're neglecting to take into account how fragile PCs were in AD&D, especially at levels 1-4. Every character had lower HP, and clerics might have only one or two healing spells. Thieves and Magic-users were usually toast if they took a couple hits. If a front-line fighter went down, a thief or rogue with any self-preservation instinct would be outta there. Two reasonably challenging encounters followed by an unexpected wandering encounter would put many parties of level 3 PCs into severe danger.

You just have to look at Thieves vs Rogues to see how the game changed. Thieves were not strikers. They were pretty useless in combat. Their function was to sneak, scout, and disarm traps. Once combat kicked off they backed away (and remember, they couldn't even use bows). Thieves only make sense as a class if evading encounters is an assumed element of the game.
 

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You might want to go back and reread your modules. Every table conforms to the PC expected levels for that module.

You might want to read some of the modules being referred to.

Caverns of Thracia and the Dark Tower have wildly varying encounter threats. Thracia is supposed to be for low-level PCs, and there's SPOILER a frickin' Lich in a hidden temple area. /SPOILER. The notes for the room says the PCs will have to run or die. And even if they do run, most will probably die anyway. The Dark Tower will have two giant spiders in one room, and a Type III demon in the next. The adventure summary includes warnings that some encounters will be deadly and PCs will need to flee. One of the wandering monsters in the lower levels SPOILER is a powerful demon, the son of a major God (Set). /SPOILER. It's one of the toughest monsters in a notoriously deadly dungeon, and the conditions under which the PCs encounter it will vary dramatically. If the DM rolls it as a random encounter while the PCs are low on resources or already engaged in a tough battle, it's flee or die time.
 
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Isn't the hp for a 14th level magic-user 11d4+3? That's an average of 30.5, no?

You're right. I must have blanked out and gone 14th level / 14 dice. Sorry about that.

He has to cast GoI first, though, right? It has a casting time of 4 segments...odds are against him getting that off. And then he spent a round doing no damage, giving the fighter types a chance to close and engage him in melee which is the last thing he wants.

It depends on if he has any warning. The low level characters are intruders. My PCs would have cast the requisite spells when trouble reared its head, not when it ran them over. Especially a lone magic user. The last time my PCs ran into a lone magic user the magic user was invisible as a precaution. Invisibility lasts until broken. Teleport is a 2 segment cast. The other spells could come later. And again, we don't know the distances, surprise, etc.

His offense is fine (though remember his fireball is doing 14d6 in 1e) and if he can get his bang spells off, he's good. It's just that when you look at the probability of him doing so, it's not good.

You're right again. That's even nastier than I remember :) I should pull my old 1E PHB out, my memory is slipping a bit. It all depends on whether or not they have set up their defenses first or what precautions they have taken (magical or otherwise). Also depends on whether he's hostile or not and whether he wants to talk first and (maybe) fry later. The potential arsenal of spells and items a 14th level magic user could have makes it hard to guess exactly what would happen.

For purposes of the discussion at hand (overcoming a random encounter) forcing him to retreat is fine.

I am not saying the PCs win all the time, but, mathematically, the lone 14th level magic-user against 6 PCs is in trouble.

Retreat is good, unless they come back. My PCs have a bad habit of beating up on bad guys, having them escape and plot their vengeance later. It's great for me as a DM :D In any event, I agree on the we can't know for sure, I just think the odds favor the 14th level magic user.
 

Lord Rasputin

Explorer
A 14th level thief is too much for a party of 4 6th level and 2 5th level characters?? No way. Even the 12th level magic-user, on its own, is going down to that party.
There's another issue, because they do have a decent chance against the thief. (The thief isn't going to take the party head-on anyways, and that's mentioned in the adventure.) I think running into a purple worm or giant slug in D1, which even a 9th level party could beat, illustrates this better: at what cost? Beating these wandering monsters will force the group to waste its resources, and make it harder to deal with important encounters later on. Hence, run away.
 

Hussar

Legend
You're neglecting to take into account how fragile PCs were in AD&D, especially at levels 1-4. Every character had lower HP, and clerics might have only one or two healing spells. Thieves and Magic-users were usually toast if they took a couple hits. If a front-line fighter went down, a thief or rogue with any self-preservation instinct would be outta there. Two reasonably challenging encounters followed by an unexpected wandering encounter would put many parties of level 3 PCs into severe danger.

You just have to look at Thieves vs Rogues to see how the game changed. Thieves were not strikers. They were pretty useless in combat. Their function was to sneak, scout, and disarm traps. Once combat kicked off they backed away (and remember, they couldn't even use bows). Thieves only make sense as a class if evading encounters is an assumed element of the game.

Why does your cleric have only 1 or 2 healing spells? By 4th level, he's got 3 1st level slots plus 2 more for wisdom - that's 5 cure light wounds. Plus 4 2nd level spells. We would beat the player around the head and ears for taking anything other than cure light wounds for 1st level spells.

AD&D characters were not fragile at all. Remember, AD&D monsters are dealing about 1/3 to 1/4 the damage that 3e monsters are. A 3.5e orc AVERAGES 9 points of damage on a hit. An AD&D orc averages about 4 points, maybe 3 depending on what weapon it's carrying. And, that 1e orc hits about half as often as well - THAC0 of 19 with no bonuses, vs an effective 3.5e THAC0 of 16 (or +1 Attack bonus vs +4 attack bonus depending on which way you want to count).

Like I said, YMMV. To me, 3e is far, far more lethal in combat. I can't see how AD&D could be. The monsters hit about 1/2 as often and deal about 1/2 as much damage. There's effectively no HP difference between a 4th level AD&D character and a 4th level 3e character. And, if you are like me and you played modules a lot, then that 4th level AD&D character has full plate, +1 shield, magic weapon or two, and probably two or three more other magic items.

AD&D was always a bit schizophrenic like that. People's experiences depended a LOT on what was played.
 

Why does your cleric have only 1 or 2 healing spells? By 4th level, he's got 3 1st level slots plus 2 more for wisdom - that's 5 cure light wounds. Plus 4 2nd level spells. We would beat the player around the head and ears for taking anything other than cure light wounds for 1st level spells.

Because he may not have bonus spells from Wisdom (he needs a 13 or 14 for those 1 or 2 spells) and he may need something besides Cure Light Wounds? Depends on what other spell casters are in his party. And he can't swap spells out for healing. A lot of people find Detect Magic useful. Still, say 3 or 4 CLWs. And I guess your assuming the cleric has a 16 Wisdom for those extra two 2nd level slots? That's a maybe.

AD&D characters were not fragile at all. Remember, AD&D monsters are dealing about 1/3 to 1/4 the damage that 3e monsters are. A 3.5e orc AVERAGES 9 points of damage on a hit. An AD&D orc averages about 4 points, maybe 3 depending on what weapon it's carrying. And, that 1e orc hits about half as often as well - THAC0 of 19 with no bonuses, vs an effective 3.5e THAC0 of 16 (or +1 Attack bonus vs +4 attack bonus depending on which way you want to count).

Talk to the AD&D Thief (4 sided HD) versus the 6 sided HD of 3.5 Rogues. It adds up. Otherwise it's pretty similar.

AD&D Orcs can carry a variety of weapons. 1D8 is typical, so say 4-5 damage. Of course about 1/5 of them will be carrying either bows or crossbows (plus swords and axes). That's only 3-4 points damage, but hey missile weapons. And some spears or polearms. Reach is a thing. They take about the same in hit points to kill, 1D8 instead of 3.5s 1D8+1. AC is slightly better in AD&D (1 point I think). Those 3.5 Orcs do hit more often, true. So AD&D Orcs do half the damage of 3.5 Orcs, don't hit as often and take about the same to kill.

The problem is in numbers. In 3.5 the 1st level Dungeon Encounter chart gives 1-3 Orcs. 2 on average. The same Chart in the AD&D DMG table is for 7-12 Orcs. 9 or 10 on average. That's 4-5 times as many Orcs... taking a lot more killing and doing, on average, about the same damage. If those 3.5 Orcs get lucky they can deal out the damage, but they won't last near as long as that AD&D bunch. And the AD&D Orcs have a lot more tactical possibilities.

Like I said, YMMV. To me, 3e is far, far more lethal in combat. I can't see how AD&D could be. The monsters hit about 1/2 as often and deal about 1/2 as much damage. There's effectively no HP difference between a 4th level AD&D character and a 4th level 3e character. And, if you are like me and you played modules a lot, then that 4th level AD&D character has full plate, +1 shield, magic weapon or two, and probably two or three more other magic items.

AD&D was always a bit schizophrenic like that. People's experiences depended a LOT on what was played.

I think it does depend on the DM and players. We were a tactical bunch and the monsters got played that way too. I had to adjust the 3.5 encounters to get them back to the difficulty my players had in 1/2E. Ymmv as always. I didn't play modules (or run them). I'd have killed for that magic load out as a player. Which is pretty much what you have to do in AD&D :D
 

Hussar

Legend
Talk to the AD&D Thief (4 sided HD) versus the 6 sided HD of 3.5 Rogues. It adds up. Otherwise it's pretty similar.

Funny. My 1e PHB lists thieves as having d6 HD. AIR, Basic/Expert thieves got d4.

Which, honestly, is a such a large part of why we have such differing experiences. So many players and DM's mixed and matched mechanics that my AD&D game and your AD&D game were the same in name only.

Like I said, I played a lot of modules. Which meant that to me, AD&D is chock a block with magic items. Far more than what a 3e group would see at the same level. Like, as in, two or three times more items. And far more powerful ones at that. See this thread: Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1) for an outstanding exploration of the amount of treasure in those old modules.
 

Funny. My 1e PHB lists thieves as having d6 HD. AIR, Basic/Expert thieves got d4.

Sorry, you are right. I was thinking back to Original D&D as of the Greyhawk supplement. I didn't play Basic / Expert. Then PF took the Rogue to D8... I think I prefer them to be a bit delicate (say D4 or 6), but then I always thought they should be sneaky skill monkeys rather than dashing swordsmen. My biggest problem with the Thief class was how lousy their starting skills (aside from Climb) were...

Which, honestly, is a such a large part of why we have such differing experiences. So many players and DM's mixed and matched mechanics that my AD&D game and your AD&D game were the same in name only.

True. We went from Original D&D to 1E to 2E updating as we went. Homebrewing as we went too.

Like I said, I played a lot of modules. Which meant that to me, AD&D is chock a block with magic items. Far more than what a 3e group would see at the same level. Like, as in, two or three times more items. And far more powerful ones at that. See this thread: Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1) for an outstanding exploration of the amount of treasure in those old modules.

An abundance of magic items was not a part of ordinary AD&D campaigns. Maybe 5% of treasures on the 1st level of a typical dungeon had magic. Which made it all the better when you did get something of course.
 

AD&D characters were not fragile at all. Remember, AD&D monsters are dealing about 1/3 to 1/4 the damage that 3e monsters are. A 3.5e orc AVERAGES 9 points of damage on a hit. An AD&D orc averages about 4 points, maybe 3 depending on what weapon it's carrying. And, that 1e orc hits about half as often as well - THAC0 of 19 with no bonuses, vs an effective 3.5e THAC0 of 16 (or +1 Attack bonus vs +4 attack bonus depending on which way you want to count).

An example of a TPK (going from memory, and making reasonable assumptions).

Against the Cult of the Reptile God. Party of four brand-new level 1 PCs venture into an abandoned inn. Three troglodytes are waiting in ambush (the adventure says they're "hiding to avoid detection."). The trogs get a good surprise roll (they surprise on 1-4!), and get two full segments of surprise, which by AD&D rules means two full attacks on helpless PCs (though only one on the thief, due to his Dex bonus).

Surprise round 1: The magic-user, thief, and druid are targeted with melee attacks. Both the magic-user and thief are hit (not improbable, with ACs of 9 and 6). The trogs are armed with stone axes for 1d8 damage. The Magic-user, who has 3 HP, is dropped immediately. The thief, who has 5 HP, is also dropped. Two PCs left standing.

Surprise round 2: Time for the trog stench save. Ranger fails and druid succeeds. Ranger loses 1 Str. Two trogs target the druid. One hits, knocking him down to 2 HP. Attack on Ranger misses.

Initiative: PCs win. Range loses another point of Str. He attacks and wounds one, but it's still standing (troglodytes are 2HD monsters). Druid misses his attack. Two trogs attack Druid again. One hits, killing the Druid. Attack on Ranger misses.

A round or two more play out. Maybe Ranger drops one of the trogs (though with the cumulative Str penalty that's far from certain). But with three trogs with 9 HP each round attacking him and dealing 1d8 on hits, it's only a matter of time.

It took a bit of luck on the part of the monsters (especially the surprise roll), but not outrageously so.

In our AD&D campaigns, the survival rate for PCs to reach to 5th level was maybe 40 per cent. Which is why tactics like scouting, evasion, and retreating became SOPs.
 

Hussar

Legend
Shrug. Run that identical encounter in 3e and watch what happens. Surprise from trogs and 9 attacks plus 3 DC 13 saves or be sickened (-2 to pretty much everything). Note, you have to succeed on all three saving throws to be immune to the stench.

And, again, our 3e trogs are getting 9 attacks per round - 3 each. Against 1st level characters? That should be a TPK with the surprise round. And, that's actually considered a slightly strong encounter - EL 3 - certainly not an impossible encounter.

I mean, come on here. Killing 1st level characters is like shooting fish in a barrel. In any edition. Talking about the lethality of an edition and only looking at 1st level is skewing things pretty darn hard. Again, 3e orcs can outright kill PC's, not just knock them below 0, in a single hit. Heck, our trogs here can deal 14 points of damage/round - just about double what the AD&D trogs could do - and that's giving the trogs better weapons - how exactly does a stone axe deal d8 damage anyway. :D
 

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