D&D 5E Worst Classes Level 1.

[Flamestrike]

The whole "deciding which PCs can and cannot roll" thing is absolutely house rules and not a typical reading of that passage.

No, it's not a house rule. The rule expressly states that the DM determines who can roll and when and what the DC is if a check is allowed. Thats the exact interpretation of that passage. It does not say 'once you set a DC every player is then allowed to check against that DC.' The passage does not even infer that interpretation.

You (the player) dont just get to pick up the dice and roll.

Your interpretation leads to results that you yourself state to be absurd. Mine doesnt.

There is a rule of Statutory interpretation whereby if two different interpretations are open to you, and one leads to an absurd result, the other (non absurd) interpretation is to be preferred.

Try it one day. It encourages skill diversity among the PCs, and highlights different skills and ability scores moving the spotlight among the players.

 

[Minigiant]

If I were to do one of those tier list things for 1st level characters, I would have trouble with the top tiers.
But the bottom would be easy to me

• Best Class
• Better Classes
• Classes
• Monk, Ranger
• Sorcerer
• Warlock

Warlock really can't leverage short rest spells with its weak 1st level spell list and only 2 spells known.

 

[Undrave]

Or the DM doesnt let the Barbarian roll that Religion check in the first place.

Thokk the barbarian from the Outlands of Hyboria doesnt get a check to know the inner workings of the Church of Torm. Egbert the Wise, Acoloyte of the Seven Heavens, gets a check.

It's a judgement call depending on player background, skills and class. I dont always allow checks for some PCs to do some tasks, and I certainly dont allow all PCs to make a check. The PC with the highest bonus can attempt the check (or alternatively the PCs can nominate one of their members to do so).

If he or she doesnt know/ cant do the task, and he's the best in the party at that task, no-one else can do it either.

Aren't some 'skill checks' gated by proficiency? If the Barbarian isn't proficient in Religion he shouldn't get to try certain rolls, regardless what he get on the d20.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Actually, the DM doesn't decide whether a check is allowed if there is a chance for failure. He calls for it when the attempt is made by the character, and that is the player's choice. The DM decides what ability is used, if skill proficiency is appropriate, and what the DC is. If a character looks up at the moon and jumps to try to leap over it, the DM can roll his eyes if he wants to, but then calls for a DC 100 Strength (Athletics) check. Obviously, this will fail because it is impossible for the character to do it.

The barbarian could have picked up a random bit of information from a traveling hermit and recalled something about "the inner workings of the Church of Torm" (recalling the fact and having the lucky exposure in his past to that tidbit of information, all represented by a lucky 19 roll). Meanwhile, the cleric fell asleep the day that info was covered (oops! represented by the unlucky total of 8). If it was a DC 15 check, good thing the barbarian's past and memory happened!

Denying the player their right to make a check when their character takes an action is not the DM's right IMO. Also, some DMs adjust the DC depending on who's making the check, but I don't do that and don't think it is good when other DM do it either.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Aren't some 'skill checks' gated by proficiency? If the Barbarian isn't proficient in Religion he shouldn't get to try certain rolls, regardless what he get on the d20.

Not in 5E.

 

[Undrave]

Actually, the DM doesn't decide whether a check is allowed if there is a chance for failure. He calls for it when the attempt is made by the character, and that is the player's choice. The DM decides what ability is used, if skill proficiency is appropriate, and what the DC is. If a character looks up at the moon and jumps to try to leap over it, the DM can roll his eyes if he wants to, but then calls for a DC 100 Strength (Athletics) check. Obviously, this will fail because it is impossible for the character to do it.

The barbarian could have picked up a random bit of information from a traveling hermit and recalled something about "the inner workings of the Church of Torm" (recalling the fact and having the lucky exposure in his past to that tidbit of information, all represented by a lucky 19 roll). Meanwhile, the cleric fell asleep the day that info was covered (oops! represented by the unlucky total of 8). If it was a DC 15 check, good thing the barbarian's past and memory happened!

Denying the player their right to make a check when their character takes an action is not the DM's right IMO. Also, some DMs adjust the DC depending on who's making the check, but I don't do that and don't think it is good when other DM do it either.

Not in 5E.

I think a LOT of us just have the bad habit of not using the ACTUAL 5e way skills work...

 

[Minigiant]

The only time you are gated out of making an ability check in 5e is when the task is impossible to fail or impossible to succeed.
DMG 237

Not nearly impossible. Straight up impossible.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think a LOT of us just have the bad habit of not using the ACTUAL 5e way skills work...

Honestly, I struggled a lot initially with the idea of doing "skill checks" without proficiency. It wasn't until I got away from the idea that ability scores only represented natural talent. In 5E, ability scores are "not just a measure of innate capabilities, but also encompasses a creature's training and competence in activities related to that ability."

The barbarian in the example doesn't need proficiency in Religion to possibly know something about it. His Intelligence could already contain some competence, represented by a good die roll.

FWIW, I am not thrilled with this personally and the way 5E does it, but that is the rule.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The only time you are gated out of making an ability check in 5e is when the task is impossible to fail or impossible to succeed.
DMG 237

Not nearly impossible. Straight up impossible.

LOL, true, so my example was a bad one, but it made the point. If the player wants to try something (recalling information) he shouldn't be denied that chance because of his class, background, or lack of proficiency because the ability score includes it by default and the chance of success depends on the die roll.

In short, if it is "impossible" for one character, it is impossible for them all.

(This is different than having a DC so high some characters might make it while others simply can't due to not having good enough modifiers.)

 

[Flamestrike]

Actually, the DM doesn't decide whether a check is allowed if there is a chance for failure. He calls for it when the attempt is made by the character, and that is the player's choice. The DM decides what ability is used, if skill proficiency is appropriate, and what the DC is. If a character looks up at the moon and jumps to try to leap over it, the DM can roll his eyes if he wants to, but then calls for a DC 100 Strength (Athletics) check. Obviously, this will fail because it is impossible for the character to do it.

No, that's not the rules.

The DM determines if a check is allowed, and if so, sets the DC for that check.

The GM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.

Ability Checks - 5th Edition SRD

If an action has a chance of failure, or if the outcome of that action is not certain, then the DM may call for an ability check to determine success or failure. Otherwise you automatically fail (or succeed) in the task at hand.

If a PC wants to jump to the Moon, or persuade the King to hand over the Kingdom, the outcome is certain (failure). As the outcome is all but certain, there is no check called for by the DM, and the PC just fails. If a PC wants to climb a ladder then there is no check required, there is no check called for by the DM, and the PC just does it.

Players dont call for an ability check. The DM does, and only when that players character has an appreciable chance of success or failure in the task at hand.