WoTC books are CHEAP!

[Tsyr]

Of course, this works on several levels.

Are they priced ok in an abstract sense? Sure.

Are the priced OK compared to what this particular product, in relation to when it is comming out, and what it offers, should be priced? That's debateable.

Is it worth it for someone who has the existing books? Even more debateable.

And even if the answer is yes to all of them doesn't mean you can't complain... I complain constantly about gas prices, for example, though I know they aren't that bad.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Whether or not it is "worth" it is up to the individual consumer. However, I think many people when determining what the price should be in their minds, underestimate the printing costs of a hardcover book with interior color pages. People also tend to overlook that vendors and distributors like to make money as well.

 

[sithramir]

Re: Re: WoTC books are CHEAP!

:Shakes Head: I spend 5 dollars to go to the movies. The books at cover price would cost me a total $90 for that I could go to the movies 18 times. I bought them online for $60 but thats still 12 movies or 24 to about 30 hours of enjoyment with no work on my part. I spend at most 5 hours (and probably about 10 out of game) in game a week so about 20 hours a month (60 if you count my prep time). I also buy almost every supplement WotC puts out and many 3rd party products. I spend on avarge about $80 a month on gaming books and supplies (more if you count the food and soda we consume wile playing). If you compare this to my $40 purchase of Half-Life which has given me hundereds of hours of gaming fun and dozens of free supplements the new D&D no longer looks that cheap. I could get the rules for free if I wanted but I like the books. It is not the money I worry about with 3.5 but the discontinuity a quasi 3rd edition rule set could bring and the possible further division of the gaming community. If movie studios put out a movie I thought ill conceived, poorly executed, and excessively exploitative I could avoid the movie or at worst be out 5 to 20 dollars. But if they change D&D it is more like updating software in that it becomes diffcult to play the old version with out a lot of hassel (LAN play only, jury-rigged drivers, arguments about the game version, conversions, and misunderstanding about how the game works).

This arguement is flawed. You still have to spend lots of bucks on the computer so please add that in. Now add in the cost of electric bill per month for your computer usage. Now add in the cost of having internet for internet games. Don't forget that 1 DMG, MM, PHB can entertain as many friends as you have without them spending the money (if you are that cheap). You could with those books play games for the rest of your life while you still spent thousands to play half-life when you consider you have to pay monthly fees plus the computer cost. (This help of other friends doesn't work as well with computer games unless they own it or play while you aren't)

My arguement has nothing to do with upgrades. It is the fact that if you already own books you can play without upgrades, but if you spend money on the upgrades its still relatively cheap because you DON"T need to buy splat books to enjoy it. Just because its upgraded doesn't mean people can't or aren't still playing old editions or even have to look on boards to worry about newer versions if they don't want to.

The dvd example also lacks the fact that you must buy a TV and a DVD player and pay electric bill for the TV.

You can't claim you need electric for d&d because you can still play during the daylight outside. All you really need is paper and a pencil which I can buy both for minimal costs (if you want you can cancel these costs out with the mere cost of supplying electicity to your TV/DVD for all those hours of watching movies).

As for your spending hours of "work", thats your choice. You don't have to do that to enjoy the game (at least I don't) although it makes it much better.

 

[Camarath]

Re: Re: Re: WoTC books are CHEAP!

Yes, but that's 24 or 30 hours of enjoyment for you alone. One set of gaming books can provide enjoyment for many people. Gotta think in terms of total person-hours of entertianment, here...

Most people in my group buy there own books so I would need to figure in their expense too. I was dealing exclusively with my own cost and benefits.

This arguement is flawed. You still have to spend lots of bucks on the computer so please add that in. Now add in the cost of electric bill per month for your computer usage. Now add in the cost of having internet for internet games.

Ok I have spent about $3000 on computers and about $2000 on internet access and electricity for the computer in the past 4 years and have spent at least 5000 hours playing games on them. So that is about $1/hour for coumputer gaming. I also use my computer for other unrelated tasks which are necessary for my profession so that I think should defray the cost a bit. If I spend 90 dollars on the core books and play 5 hours a week for 3 years thats 780 hours so about $0.11/hour if (and it is a big if) I do not buy and other supplements. If I spend my normal amount on games ($80/month) it comes out to about $4/hour. I could also play for free using the SRD and bootlegged PDF scans if I wanted.

Don't forget that 1 DMG, MM, PHB can entertain as many friends as you have without them spending the money (if you are that cheap). You could with those books play games for the rest of your life while you still spent thousands to play half-life when you consider you have to pay monthly fees plus the computer cost. (This help of other friends doesn't work as well with computer games unless they own it or play while you aren't)

I was and am dealing with only my own costs. When the people I play with help cover the cost of my books we can talk about communal time.

My arguement has nothing to do with upgrades. It is the fact that if you already own books you can play without upgrades, but if you spend money on the upgrades its still relatively cheap because you DON"T need to buy splat books to enjoy it. Just because its upgraded doesn't mean people can't or aren't still playing old editions or even have to look on boards to worry about newer versions if they don't want to.

It costs my time and frustration both of which are more valuable to my then money. I spend a decent amount of money on 3rd edition products, especialy WotC ones, and don't look forward to the other costs I will have to pay with 3.5 the money is relatively inconsequential at least to me.

The dvd example also lacks the fact that you must buy a TV and a DVD player and pay electric bill for the TV.

I did not actualy talk about DVDs. But, a bad DVD would cause me much less grief then a bad edition of D&D.

You can't claim you need electric for d&d because you can still play during the daylight outside. All you really need is paper and a pencil which I can buy both for minimal costs (if you want you can cancel these costs out with the mere cost of supplying electicity to your TV/DVD for all those hours of watching movies).

You also need dice. And I am not really interested the theoretical minimuim cost of playing D&D. In reality I do use electricly, I do buy food and soda, I do pay for the house we play in, I do buy game supplies that cost more than paper, and I do buy lots of rule supplements. If you want to talk about cheap entertainment we should talk about my $12.50 chess board which has seen about 1000 hours of use over it's life so about $0.01/hour. Or verbal only games I some times play with my friends which cost us nothing but our own creativity.

As for your spending hours of "work", thats your choice. You don't have to do that to enjoy the game (at least I don't) although it makes it much better.

Sure it is my choice but you have to spend some time perparing for a game or at least learning the rules. D&D requires effort on my part and many comparble forms of entertainment do not. If I pay for a product it value is mitigated some what by the effort I put into it to get enjoyment out of it. The cost of 3.5 I find expensive has nothing to do with money. Although I don't think that D&D as many of us play it is particularly cheap.

 

[sithramir]

We're going into an arguement over tid bits here. My point on my last post was just that you do need to have a TV to use a DVD (or a computer) and so have to add that cost in. Whether you benefit or not from using it in other ways is irrelevant when calculating the cost of enjoyment of the DVD purely. Because its impossible to enjoy it without. Gaining more things like cable are in a different category. (The worth of the TV not the DVD).

I could pile all my d&d books on a pile and use it as a table and hence say well I have to calculate that in also, etc.

My original point doesn't affect someone who spends tons of money on lots of books. It was just a reminder that people who complained about the cost or though "wow I have to spend 90 bucks to buy these books TODAY" therefore saying its not worth it sometimes forget to think that they spent so much money on those original 3e books and gained 3 + years of enjoyment from them.

Your arguements are correct because you can't argue somethings worth fully because you can always add another angle to it like saying "I use my computer for educatoinal purposes". The problem is things like that can be debated "well thats debating the worth of the COMPUTER and not purely the worth of the the DVD that is useless without your computer whether your computer benefits you in other ways or not.

 

[Ave Rage]

Cost of 3.0 d&d books? 20 dollars each.

Cost of 3.5 d&D books? 30 dollars each.

Seeing people spend a bunch of time arguing over this. Priceless.



I was never one for house rules. I just figured what was in the book was good enough for me. After seeing the 3.5 changes I'll probably buy them and pick and choose which options I want like most of the posters here.

They could cost 40 bucks and I'd just save up 10 more dollars. Now, if only I could get a pdf version of the changes for 8bucks online. That'd be the perfect solution for this college paying guy Too bad it's still a business :/

 

[Darkness]

Now, if only I could get a pdf version of the changes

I'm sure someone, somewhere will make a list of the changes in a short while.

 

[Camarath]

The core system in both 3.0 and 3.5 is the same but many of the mechanics have changed. So I am not buying a new system like I did with 3.0 I am buying a revised system and paying more for it. It changes the game we have been playing for 3 years that is bound to cause some problems.

The question I wonder about is why did they change the game. They already have my money on almost any product they put out. There were some game play and balance issues but not enough IMO to justify a revision yet. There are a lot of changes that look goog, a good number that look unnessecary, some that look bad, and a few that look like someone's campaign's house rules.

I have mixed feelings about 3.5. On the one hand I am excited about the new classes and some of the other changes. On the other hand I fear I will have to relearn the system with 3.5 and then unlearn the changes to play in 3.0 again. This will cost me confusion and furstration.

The money is not the big issue for me. They already have my money but not everyone's I guess. And so the quest to take everyone's money is probly going to hurt my gaming experience. That is why 3.5 looks expensive to me.

P.S. my :Shakes Head: was about paying $8 to go to the movies not about your argument

 

[Angcuru]

D&D books really ARE cheap. Especially when your DM buys every single one on the market which in turn causes you to say "What the heck, I'll just use his."

 

[sithramir]

You question why the changed the rules. Well I think aside from making money obviously the changes are mainly to put more balance and to fix some of the overly powerful things.

I'm a bit of a munchkin in the fact that I always max/min characters I make to make them powerful. Now I still love to role play so i'm not a real "munchkin" or anything but I still want to kick butt. When I look at what things my charater chooses its usualyl the most powerful mix of things I can think of.

A lot of the changes fix or weaken those overly powerful things. I was looking at one of my current characters and like every magic item that he has now costs a heck of a lot more because they were the items taht were too cheap. GLoves of storing, displacement cloak (my wizard becomes a damn good fighter with 50 percent miss chance), boots of flying allowing me to have 2 hours worth of flying for free which is huge. Now in 3.5 he won't be able to afford all that stuff because he was very powerful in those reguards without even looking at the characters skills/make.

Same thing with spells. I chose haste/buffers/poly other/enervate, etc. My character could beat a BBEG in one spell or one round with hastes. If its not the first its pretty much the second. If i'm unprepared i get at least 3 attack spells in 2 rounds if i'm prepared enough to haste a round early it becomes 4. Thats insane when a melee character had to spend a round just to reach the guy to fight him unless he's using range.

Its funny cause my melee characters still have gloves of storing/displacement cloaks/boots of flying because its just too good to give up 2 quick draws with gloves and faster movement that flies and 50 % miss chance.

As a player these changes hurt but as a DM I understand that they are a lot more balanced. Now whether or not they went TOO far is another matter. Making buff spells 1min/lvl instead of just 10 and thus avoiding the all day buffs from 1hr/lvl, just was silly as it took too much role playing bonus from those spells. But thats for another thread.