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WOTC D20 Modern vs AEG Spycraft

Although Modern is a great book, I will not suggest it because WOTC will not support it like they should. Spycraft is a awesome book and it well supported by it's publishers. And if you like the scifi genre, AEG has StarGate SG1 coming out in a couple months which will use the Spycraft engine.
 

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I'm slanted a bit more towards Spycraft. The rules have been cleaned up a lot for a more 'cinematic' setting. Though it may seem suprising to have a d20 system with no AOO's, only three types of actions (Full, Half and Free), and no iterative attacks (just 2 attacks as half actions), the changes make the game much, much more cinematic and aimed towards the gun dominated modern setting.

I think you'd do best going to the store, taking both books to a quite corner, and skim them. Whichever one jumps out at you more, go with.
 

* Sighs * :rolleyes:

And exactly how should they support d20 Modern, Junior Executive Kenpo Wolf?

By flooding the market with at least 10 supporting supplements a month? IOW, go back to using TSR's bad management habit?

Just because there seems to be a slow output of products (including Star Wars line) from Wizards does not mean they are not supporting them. And as long as I keep fighting against those who wanted to change Poly magazine into a "D&D" clone d20 Fantasy Magazine (to appease D&D gamers, not d20 gamers), we got support from that, as well as third-party publishers.

I mean this is the first GENERIC product that will have the full support of third-party publishers.

Besides, do you know how many Modern-day genres are out there? It has a wide range, there is no one obvious Modern genre, but there is one obvious Fantasy genre.

Rather than whine about the lack of support from Wizards, why not set up a fansite and get the community to contribute?
 

I haven't picked up Spycraft, but I've skimmed through it at the local book store.

It is nice, and is supported by one company.

d20 Modern is also very nice, but also extremely hefty in the wallet. I didn't like the layout at all, and I'm not interested at ALL in Urban Arcana.

That said, d20 Modern will definately support all my gaming needs, from regular gritty D&D style 'adventuring' or SpecOps (thanks to RPGObjects), or super-spy type stuff.

Luckily, d20 Modern is supported by many small publishers, such as RPGObjects, TGM, EN Publishing, and more. AEG only has so much time to put out spycraft stuff. But 10 small publishers can put out lots more...which is why I like it.


In regards to poly, I haven't gotten it yet...and from what I hear it's not worth it for a modern only gamer (I gave up D&D to play modern).

Aside from the many 'e-zine' PDF mags out there, are there any good print mags like Dragon/Dungeon?
 

jezter6 said:

d20 Modern is also very nice, but also extremely hefty in the wallet. I didn't like the layout at all, and I'm not interested at ALL in Urban Arcana.
Well, they could break the all-in-one core rulebook into a three-volume set for $30 each. :p

With the exception of D&D, any new RPG core rules products from Wizards will always be one singular book for $40.

As for the layout, granted I'm not a fan of urban culture with the baggy pants and the displaying your boxer or thong, with the hip-hop music sung by artist with criminal records, blah-blah-blah. But Wizards' best demographic have always been 18-30 age group.

As for Urban Arcana, Wizards' policy is to always cater to the D&D audience, most of them are casual gamers. After all, that is their largest consumer base when it comes to RPG products. Urban Arcana allow gamers to make a slow transition from traditional fantasy to modern fantasy RPG.

To say you're going to make a completely different product for a different audience that you don't know if they're out there is much more risky. THAT was TSR's undoing.


That said, d20 Modern will definately support all my gaming needs, from regular gritty D&D style 'adventuring' or SpecOps (thanks to RPGObjects), or super-spy type stuff.
I'm surprised you didn't check out Holistic Design's Afghanistan: d20 and Somalia: d20.


In regards to poly, I haven't gotten it yet...and from what I hear it's not worth it for a modern only gamer (I gave up D&D to play modern).
I got them. I like them. The only reason why I'm buying Dungeon.

As I said before, there are a wide range of modern genres. Yours just happen to be hard modern (mixed with paramilitary/military elements). As for me, I've enjoyed Shadow Chasers (a Buffy/Blade clone), MECHA CRUSADE (as a mecha fan, the d20 Modern core system is appropriate for this type of "sci-fi" genres), and Genetech (a Dark Angel "Me wanna chase Jessica Alba in the dark of night" game).

Aside from the many 'e-zine' PDF mags out there, are there any good print mags like Dragon/Dungeon?
For d20 Modern, or a third-party d20 magazine?

Campaign magazine is one. Printed in pulp (similar to Shadis) for $5.00

Gaming Frontier is another. Damn expensive; $20 an issue.
 

Ranger REG said:
* Sighs * :rolleyes:

And exactly how should they support d20 Modern, Junior Executive Kenpo Wolf?

By flooding the market with at least 10 supporting supplements a month? IOW, go back to using TSR's bad management habit?

I mean this is the first GENERIC product that will have the full support of third-party publishers.

Actually, I would like to see WOTC put out a Modern product at least once every three or four months. The only thing for Modern they have put out is one book, which is mostly fantasy based, in six months if I recall correctly.

And concerning third party support, some of it may be cool and all but I would like to see Modern supported in-house.
 

Kenpo Wolf said:

Actually, I would like to see WOTC put out a Modern product at least once every three or four months. The only thing for Modern they have put out is one book, which is mostly fantasy based, in six months if I recall correctly.
They are still testing the modern-day roleplaying genre. They can't just put out a product and hope that every d20 Modern Rulebook owner will buy it. They risked making Urban Arcana because the target group have always been their largest fan base, D&D.

You want them to find a different fan base? I wish them good luck.

Oh, in case you're not in the loop, look for the Menace Manual coming out later this year.


And concerning third party support, some of it may be cool and all but I would like to see Modern supported in-house.
It is being supported. You just got to know where to look. Besides, they got a small number of employees now working in the RPG division, and their new policy is to contract freelanced writers, so it is no different from a third-party game designer making a d20 Modern product than one being contracted by Wizards, who does the ... hehehe ... editing ... hehehe.

Sorry, but their editing proficiency have never been their strong suit.

If you choose to prefer waiting for Wizards to make "official" d20 Modern products for you -- like those hardcore D&D gamers who won't even look at outside d20 fantasy support -- that's up to you and your frustration.
 
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I am a huge fan of Spycraft, and have not actually read d20 Modern (as my wife calls it blasphemy, she's a bigger Spycraft fan than I am). But, I've read my share of this argument, and here's how I see it breaking down.

Spycraft is cinematic. Period. It supports cinematic extremely well (action dice being key), but it needs to be tweaked to allow for realistic, gritty action. d20 Modern is more flexible, but consequently doesn't support any particular style as well. It's a breadth vs. depth question.

Spycraft's design philosophy focuses on offering up each new rules set as a self-contained nugget, that you can use or ignore at will. This makes it very much a toolbox. You can mix and match tools to not only fit your campaign, but your individual players (running infiltration as a straight skill check, use the streamlined infiltration rules, or actually play it out, depending on the interest in and the importance of the detail). Add up a certain set of tools, and you come up with a particular campaign flavor. d20 Modern, on the other hand, attempts to create a very integrated, but very generic, system. So, you use the same tools for every campaign (tweaking for levels of tech, magic, etc. of course). Much better rules consistency from campaign to campaign, but less change in flavor.

Spycraft assumes that the characters are highly trained operatives at 1st level. It also is scaled as much as possible to allow the characters to continue to get scarier as they increase in level (e.g., many more high-level feats than D&D offers). 16th-20th level characters really are super-human. d20 Modern assumes that characters are average Joes when they start out (hence, the base classes of Fast, Smart, Strong, etc.). Consequently, they also cap out sooner. You would really need to re-scale the system to properly portray James Bond or Batman. OTOH, it would be nigh-impossible to create Xander Harris or most any horror-movie victim/hero as a PC in Spycraft.

Mechanically, they both have good points. Spycraft has a VERY clean combat system. I also really like what they did with feats (breaking them down into a number of categories, and including a lot of Skill, Gear, and Style feats for people who aren't all about combat). OTOH, from what I understand, d20 Modern's wealth mechanic is much cleaner than Spycraft's BP/GP system.

Spycraft: If you want espionage, there's no question. Otherwise, it's good for highly cinematic games, especially with significant military or pseudo-military action. Personally, I think the mechanics are better in general.

d20 Modern: If you want a game of average Joes caught up in events beyond their understanding, this is the better game. Also, if you want a very gritty, realistic game, this might be the better choice (personally, I hate grit, so I generally don't look at those aspects). Finally, if you want a lot of magical elements (Buffy, Vampire: the Facade, Shadowrun), this has the advantage of already having the mechanics built in. I don't think they are superior quality, but at least the work is already done.


Oh, and on the point of 3rd party support, Spycraft will be getting significant 3rd party support soon. Paradigm is releasing two sourcebooks this year (Most Wanted and Combat Missions). A few other publishers are looking at the "Powered by Spycraft" option AEG is putting on the table. Expect official announcements later this year. (This is the word from the Spycraft GM seminar at Origins.)
 

Thanks for all the information. I picked up Spycraft since D20 Stargate will be based on it and it looks to me like it is the system I would have perferred anyways.
 

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