D&D 5E WotC Dungeons & Dragons 2020 Product Survey

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm simply saying that financially, they are getting more than just a cut of the book sales.

And that's a statement which you can't back up with any kind of evidence, so it's really just a baseless opinion.

I'd be unsurprised if there was some sort of yearly licensing fee to be able to keep selling these books, but it's unlikely to be large. But If you're claiming WotC take a percentage of say, Roll 20's or Fantasy Grounds' subscription fee, I'm going to say, that's almost certainly complete nonsense. Roll 20/FG support a bunch of games, and the idea that they're giving them all a cut of the sub is laughable, as is the idea that they'd only give WotC a cut. And there's not much chance they're taking a percentage of Beyond's sub fee if they aren't taking a similar cut from R20/FG.

Re: the PDFs, sure, people pirate-scan books to create PDFs, but some mediocre-to-low quality pirated PDF is not really what most consumers want, and if there's an alternative to piracy, most consumers will take it.

I'm pretty sure one of the big names has said during the 5e years that piracy isn't one of the considerations.

I'm equally "pretty sure" they said it was when they first moved to no PDFs in 4E.

But sharing a copy with a friend, that doesn't seem unethical.

I think this is the big thing - if you go legal PDF, you can guarantee than an entire friend-network will all have a copy of the PDF pretty quickly.

Yup, Nathan Stewart made it pretty clear, and repeatedly, that customer experience was the main issue: PDFs can be very handy, but most people don't like just using the raw PDF.

The problem was that when he said this first couple of times, it was wholly unconvincing, because there was no legitimate digital format of 5E available at all (or if there was, it was FG/Roll20 or something, and thus an even worse experience than PDF). I remember that Beyond didn't actually have it's versions available until quite some time after he said that, as it came up a lot on the Beyond boards that he'd said that. Then for a while it was basically only on iOS (Americanocentric prats), before finally being properly done on Android.

So if that was only reason, it was a nonsense-reason at the time he said it, or WotC were absolutely incompetent in delivering on it (and yeah, even if they're going through digital partners, the buck stops with them).

Which is of course another reason to bring things in-house, so they can be more certain and deliver better. They can also be more prepared for their own design choices. Beyond are by far the most tightly connected with WotC, and they have literally outright said that WotC does not typically tell them about UAs or the like before they get published, and even with books, they often with published books, they get a surprisingly short amount of time.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The musical industry has got the same troubles about the piracy, and also the teleseries. What is the strategy? Transmedia franchises (t-shirts, toys..)

I am a collector. I could pirate a lot of books, but I would rather to buy the books I like.

Who most suffers by the piracy are the 3PPs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Who most suffers by the piracy are the 3PPs.

This is true. They also suffer by being effectively locked out of Beyond. I know you can sometimes get stuff on FG/R20, but even that is limited. I hope that if WotC do take over the digital space for 5E, they'll allow 3PPs to have a more formal way in, and perhaps sell through a WotC store (with some huge cut for WotC I'm sure, but even that could work out due to publicity). I mean, I doubt they will do that, but it would be very good for D&D's long-term health.

 

[Parmandur]

And that's a statement which you can't back up with any kind of evidence, so it's really just a baseless opinion.

I'd be unsurprised if there was some sort of yearly licensing fee to be able to keep selling these books, but it's unlikely to be large. But If you're claiming WotC take a percentage of say, Roll 20's or Fantasy Grounds' subscription fee, I'm going to say, that's almost certainly complete nonsense. Roll 20/FG support a bunch of games, and the idea that they're giving them all a cut of the sub is laughable, as is the idea that they'd only give WotC a cut. And there's not much chance they're taking a percentage of Beyond's sub fee if they aren't taking a similar cut from R20/FG.

Re: the PDFs, sure, people pirate-scan books to create PDFs, but some mediocre-to-low quality pirated PDF is not really what most consumers want, and if there's an alternative to piracy, most consumers will take it.



I'm equally "pretty sure" they said it was when they first moved to no PDFs in 4E.



I think this is the big thing - if you go legal PDF, you can guarantee than an entire friend-network will all have a copy of the PDF pretty quickly.



The problem was that when he said this first couple of times, it was wholly unconvincing, because there was no legitimate digital format of 5E available at all (or if there was, it was FG/Roll20 or something, and thus an even worse experience than PDF). I remember that Beyond didn't actually have it's versions available until quite some time after he said that, as it came up a lot on the Beyond boards that he'd said that. Then for a while it was basically only on iOS (Americanocentric prats), before finally being properly done on Android.

So if that was only reason, it was a nonsense-reason at the time he said it, or WotC were absolutely incompetent in delivering on it (and yeah, even if they're going through digital partners, the buck stops with them).

Which is of course another reason to bring things in-house, so they can be more certain and deliver better. They can also be more prepared for their own design choices. Beyond are by far the most tightly connected with WotC, and they have literally outright said that WotC does not typically tell them about UAs or the like before they get published, and even with books, they often with published books, they get a surprisingly short amount of time.

They were trying to get n online tool for 5E from the start, the first attempt announced fell through.

I agree they are probably going to try making their own digital tools in-house, and WotC is not the digital n00bs they used to be: see the entirely in-house Magic the Gathering: Arena. If they put out a Dungeons & Dragons: Arena that was a VTT and Beyond substitute, and gave Beyond, Fantasy Grounds, and Roll 20 notice they wouldn't get license renewals (I assume they are time bound licenses)...yeah, it's plausible. Doesn't need a 6E, even.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Doesn't need a 6E, even.

I don't think it needs it, but I think it would be a lot more palatable for customers of Beyond, R20, FG and so on (and Beyond is pretty big, I understand) if there was some sort of "rules justification" rather than them all just getting fired by WotC. And I don't think WotC will be happy to just "compete" with them - particularly not with Beyond. It would also help get people not customers of them "on board" with WotC's digital offering, especially if - and here's an evil plan for you - the "digital" version gave you "early access" to 6E, for a few months.

I could envision a scenario in which WotC buys Beyond, and lets R20/FG continue, as they're "lesser" competitors, and does all this within 5E, but I think that's less likely than an edition break. Though I am sure 6E will be more a 1E-2E-type change than a 2E-3E or 3E-4E-type one.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't think it needs it, but I think it would be a lot more palatable for customers of Beyond, R20, FG and so on (and Beyond is pretty big, I understand) if there was some sort of "rules justification" rather than them all just getting fired by WotC. And I don't think WotC will be happy to just "compete" with them - particularly not with Beyond. It would also help get people not customers of them "on board" with WotC's digital offering, especially if - and here's an evil plan for you - the "digital" version gave you "early access" to 6E, for a few months.

I could envision a scenario in which WotC buys Beyond, and lets R20/FG continue, as they're "lesser" competitors, and does all this within 5E, but I think that's less likely than an edition break. Though I am sure 6E will be more a 1E-2E-type change than a 2E-3E or 3E-4E-type one.

I think if they do this, they will likely do some grandfathering in of customers from licensed platforms, since getting the player base transferred over to continue paying and encouraging new customers (because people turn 8 every day) would be worth more money in the long run than forcing everyone to re-buy everything.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

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[Urriak Uruk]

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[eyeheartawk]

Dude I understand your circumstances, but you just admitted to pirating on a public forum? I kind of need to report you for that...

Guys got pdf files of books he physically owns and you're gonna report him?

Laaaammmmeeeeee

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think if they do this, they will likely do some grandfathering in of customers from licensed platforms, since getting the player base transferred over to continue paying and encouraging new customers (because people turn 8 every day) would be worth more money in the long run than forcing everyone to re-buy everything.

I think in an ideal world, yes.

This is part of why I think it might be worth them buying Beyond, unless it's unreasonably priced by its current owners. If they bought it, they could simply keep it going, and just keep the userbase. It's not like anyone is using it because it's not WotC. Quite the contrary.

I don't think you could "grandfather" FG/Roll 20 people across, realistically, because they're competitors. I mean, technically you could give people codes to transfer over but to do that properly you'd need FG/Roll 20 to collaborate with you taking their customers, which I think is unlikely. What is also possible of course if that you could buy Beyond, and make it the "direct pipeline" to your material whilst letting FG/Roll 20 exist as sort of "lesser" versions, but given the way WotC operate I'd be slightly surprised if they went with that.