D&D 4E WotC Greg: 4E Campaign Report Part 2

[Ipissimus]

I disagree that Raise Dead should be completely struck from the game. Having a character sacrifice themselves for the greater good is one thing, suddenly finding yourself dead and out of the game because of a few unlucky dice rolls is a shuddering anticlimax that will leave a bad taste in your player's mouths.

I know what Greg means about 3E angels, though. I remember running Bastion of Broken Souls the trouble a certain section gave me where the adventure called for the party to fight a Solar and a Planetar to the death by DM fiat. Reading the adventure, I knew that there was no way my players were going to go for it. And they didn't, they flat out refused to fight the Angels despite the fact that the universe might fall apart if they didn't. To move the game along, I had to go against the adventure and let them talk the Solar around. The most unbelieveable thing in the whole senario was that the Solar, a being of pure good with an int and wis somewhere in the stratosphere, would fight a group dedicated to saving the multiverse. It's more likely to sacrifice itself for the greater good than combat a friend in such dire need.

Anyway, looking at the Black Dragon's stats, and what people have posted, I reckon that those who defeated that dragon used superior tactics, got some lucky rolls in and the DM had bunches of bad luck. If your wizard had picked Acid Arrow instead of Sleep, you were proper stuffed, assuming the wizard beat the thing's will.

 

[Lizard]

Never had much of a problem with RD from a worldbuilding perspective.

First, even the weakest of them is expensive. A typical expert earns a few silver a week. The vast bulk of the population will never come close to a 5000 gp diamond -- and how many such diamonds are there, anyway?

But mid-level nobles, wealthy merchants, etc, can afford it. OK. Second part -- 10th level clerics aren't common. Thirdly -- the spell, and how it works, is common knowledge. Assassins know to take the head with them, or otherwise make the 5th level version unusable.

So we get to Resurrection, which works from a fingerbone or a pile of dust. Well, again, 14th level clerics are even rarer. And PC nonchalance aside, they're not going to ask their gods to reverse death just because someone asked. Was the deceased worthy of continued life? Did they worship the cleric's god, or at least their pantheon? Were they close in alignment? And is there even that finger to be found? Someone powerful enough to be on good terms with a 14th level cleric will have equally powerful foes, foes capable of making sure nothing remains.

True Resurrection requires an 18th level cleric and nothing but knowledge. If the cleric is determined to bring the person back, nothing on the prime material (except Trap The Soul, etc) can stop them. But there are still other issues -- what's happening on the Other Side? Does the soul want to return (if it's in a good place) or will it be allowed to return (if it isn't)?

I find the whole "You have a special destiny, young Skywalker...er...Foeslayer" shtick to be unnecessarily ham-handed and gives PCs even bigger egos than they already have. "Woo hoo! I was Raised! I have a DESTINY!" (It also forces me to ask why their destiny doesn't manifest until they're 11th level. "Whoa, looks like the the Chosen One, He Who Would Defeat The Lord Of Burning Darkness, just got ganked by a kobold. Damn. Oh well, nothing we Gods Of Fate can do about that, we can only send souls back if they hit 11th level. So it goes.") There's plenty of ways to avoid 'revolving door afterlife' for NPCs without declaring them to be Destinyless Losers.

 

[keterys]

A typical expert earns a few silver a week.

Actually, an untrained peon earns 5 to 7 silver per week, while a 1st level expert most likely makes at least 17 gold per week.

Granted, that's gross and not net, but given how the real world works, it's only 30 weeks of savings to pay for raise dead and most people save away far more than that for retirement. So this would just be anti-retirement.

 

[Lizard]

Actually, an untrained peon earns 5 to 7 silver per week, while a 1st level expert most likely makes at least 17 gold per week.

Granted, that's gross and not net, but given how the real world works, it's only 30 weeks of savings to pay for raise dead and most people save away far more than that for retirement. So this would just be anti-retirement.

Still have to find the cleric. And the diamond. ("Sorry, diamonds that size just don't come around all that often. We had a run on them last week, after the Daring Heroes were almost completely wiped out in their trip to the Dungeon Of Painful Spikes.")

Yeah, I somehow misremembered experts as earning half their skill in SILVER each week.

EDIT: I should add something. I have no problem with PCs being the far end of the bell curve, being basically smarter, stronger, luckier, more talented, etc, than most, being "destined" in the sense they were born with superior abilities, had opportunities for training others lacked, were strong of will and purpose, etc. This is why PC-classed characters are rare and commoners are...common. I do have issues with the idea they are marked for greatness in an in-world way, where, by virtue of being The PCs, are "destined" to do more than some other equally strong, equally skilled, equally willful NPC. (It does lead to an interesting idea, though...Trial By Execution. All candidates for positions of great power and authority are executed. The ones who can be raised get the job, as the gods clearly intend for them to do Great Things.)

The idea that there's an object test for 'Destiny' has some interesting implications, especially if the hapless character doesn't know what his destiny IS, only that he HAS one. There's a definite story hook there.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Actually, an untrained peon earns 5 to 7 silver per week, while a 1st level expert most likely makes at least 17 gold per week.

Granted, that's gross and not net, but given how the real world works, it's only 30 weeks of savings to pay for raise dead and most people save away far more than that for retirement. So this would just be anti-retirement.

I think you missed a decimal point.... 30 x 17 = 510.

You'd need to save 300 weeks (approx 6 years) gross wages for the diamond alone.

Ken

 

[DandD]

I disagree that Raise Dead should be completely struck from the game. Having a character sacrifice themselves for the greater good is one thing, suddenly finding yourself dead and out of the game because of a few unlucky dice rolls is a shuddering anticlimax that will leave a bad taste in your player's mouths.

That's why Dying has become even a little bit more harder for the Player Characters, with you only really being truly dead if you roll three failed saves when in the negatives or being chopped to death by having negative hitpoints equal to your bloodied hp number.
Adding Raise Dead in whatever form just makes those rule changes worthless anyway, if you can be raised for a bunch of moolah.

Oh well, as soon as I find that wishing star, I'll make Raise Dead retroactively dissapear from the minds of D&D-player everywhere.

Alternatively, Raise Dead/Ressurection/True Ressurection is a dreadful ritual that you can only gain from really really evil books like the Necronomicon, and similar. At least, there's one thing to do for D&D 5.0.

 

[keterys]

I think you missed a decimal point.... 30 x 17 = 510.

You'd need to save 300 weeks (approx 6 years) gross wages for the diamond alone.

Ken

Sad thing is I looked at the math and went 'Wow, is that right?' - I only meant to cite the 17gp instead of the several silver at first.

Teach me to try and do math when I first wake up.

So really only master craftsman would have it done. Or people in charge of multiple craftsman, bigger merchants, tavern owners, nobles of any kind, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, an untrained peon earns 5 to 7 silver per week, while a 1st level expert most likely makes at least 17 gold per week.

Granted, that's gross and not net, but given how the real world works, it's only 30 weeks of savings to pay for raise dead and most people save away far more than that for retirement. So this would just be anti-retirement.

Isn't NPC spell casting costs something like 100 GP per spell level (don't have the DMG handy)?

If the Expert could save half of his money (and live on the other half), he could save 8.5 GP a week. It costs 5500 GP (?) for Raise Dead, so that would be 647 weeks or about 12.5 years to save up that much.

Players tend to not realize the VAST amounts of wealth that PCs acquire, even at low levels in 3E. A human fifth level PC could easily sell his stuff and survive off just the gold (without investing) for the rest of his life in 3E.

 

[Goobermunch]

Hmmm... Makes me wonder how "Hybrids" like the Druid, where they will go in tough fights. Will they still meld their different types, or will they pick a specific style.

Also, NPC Chimera = Awesome. I am assuming this was with monster-stats? How does that fair using a monster as an NPC-party member?

Having played a WoW druid, and read some of the recent hints about the class, I can imagine. By the way, this is not intended to say that "OMG, 4e is teh suxxor cuz it copies WoW."

In WoW, the druid has different abilities based on the form he's in. In his basic form, he's a caster. Strong healer, moderate nuker. He can transform into a bear form, which gives him tanking abilities--high armor and slow, damaging attacks that generate lots of threat. His final form (as relevant here) is cat form. In cat form, the druid has stealth and dps powers.

When played in a group, druids usually stick to one role (unless something goes wrong, at which point the druid may well change shapes to fill in for a character who's died). But when played solo, it's not uncommon for a druid player to use all his abilities and forms in a single combat. For example, when soloing with my druid, my usual technique was to start in cat form, stealth, backstab my target, do a few high damage attacks, and then use a damage over time finishing move. Then, I'd shift to bear form. As a bear, I could continue to do reasonable damage while reducing the amount of damage I suffered. If need be, I would then stun my foe, shift to caster form, drop a heal over time (or two) on myself, a damage over time on my target, and shift back to cat form for another backstab while the target was stunned.

I'd do this particular dance to tackle 2-3 enemies 3-4 levels above my character with great success.

In 4e, I think it will be reversed. I suspect that the party's druid is going to be shifting forms and casting spells to deal with whatever the current tactical situation will be. If I'm focused on wildshape, I'll do my best to stay in that form during the beginning of the battle, since that's where my strengths lie. However, as we wear on, and the leaders are running out of healing powers, I can pop into caster form and do some magic damage and trigger healing surges.

There are a couple of theories on how hybrids should operate. Some people think they should be able to do a little bit from two roles. Others think they should be able to do everything from both roles. The reason I liked the druid was because it could change roles in mid combat and passably fill its new role. It's not about being able to do both at the same time, it's about being able to do one or the other well when needed.

I certainly hope that the 4e Druid will go that route.

--G

 

[Insight]

My group defeated it, and I saw another do it.

DM screwed up a couple things (hit someone extra with a breath weapon twice that he shouldn't have, but also let the wizard's Light spell dispel the zone of darkness...), but only had one guy unconscious (the fighter).

We defeated the black dragon as well. The DM was being extremely kind to us, because the dragon's breath kept resetting every round, but he refused to actually have it breathe that often. There's no way we would have survived if he'd been a RBDM.