D&D 4E WotC Greg: 4E Campaign Report Part 2

[hong]

Light is only a 1st level spell, and the dragon is 6th level. Seems overly powerful that the light would dispel the darkness (although I ruled it canceled out the darkness just enough for the wiz to see the dragon gloating at him).

 

[Mephistopheles]

I'd be interested to know why Greg feels he can use an angel as an adversary in 4E while he didn't feel comfortable doing so in 3E. He mentions this in the previous blog talking about the same encounter and doesn't really explain how or why 4E changes his opinion on it.

I'm also kind of surprised that he'd choose the creature he chose and then be surprised how it played out. When I'm planning encounters I look less at CR and more at how often the creature will hit or affect my PCs with abilities and vice versa. This can be tricky in 3E due to the large variance in maths (ie/ low BAB vs high BAB, low save vs high save, etc) but I still find it works more predictably than going solely by CR. From what we've seen of 4E I think that approach would work even better with the smoothing out of the numbers so I'm not sure why he didn't see it coming.

 

[Cyronax]

I'd be interested to know why Greg feels he can use an angel as an adversary in 4E while he didn't feel comfortable doing so in 3E. He mentions this in the previous blog talking about the same encounter and doesn't really explain how or why 4E changes his opinion on it.

I'm also kind of surprised that he'd choose the creature he chose and then be surprised how it played out. When I'm planning encounters I look less at CR and more at how often the creature will hit or affect my PCs with abilities and vice versa. This can be tricky in 3E due to the large variance in maths (ie/ low BAB vs high BAB, low save vs high save, etc) but I still find it works more predictably than going solely by CR. From what we've seen of 4E I think that approach would work even better with the smoothing out of the numbers so I'm not sure why he didn't see it coming.

Its partly because angels in 3e (and earlier editions) were the servants of Good (only) Gods. In 4e, all gods have angels as far as I understand it. Its an Astral Sea type o' thing.

Devils, in the 4e cosmology, are actually all fallen servants of one particular god (essentially anti-angels (or exarchs?))

Demons don't even enter into this equation so far as I understand it.

c.i.d.

 

[keterys]

The light spell isn't supposed to help with the darkness zone from the dragon, no.

I hear the dragon's defenses are all 2 too high, which would probably help make that a more interesting fight.

And yeah, throwing angels at a good party felt mostly wrong in 3e... in 4e, angels get to fight everyone, long as some god (or servant thereof) doesn't like you.

One of the things about playtesting... sometimes you try to break things. He might have also just wanted to scare them, and have them try to flee.

Like half the party did - wonder how the fight would have gone if they'd had the whole group actively fighting.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'd be interested to know why Greg feels he can use an angel as an adversary in 4E while he didn't feel comfortable doing so in 3E. He mentions this in the previous blog talking about the same encounter and doesn't really explain how or why 4E changes his opinion on it.

From what I can tell from talking to the R&D people at DDXP, the designers truly do believe in the math of the new system. It doesn't matter WHICH creature the PCs are fighting, just what level they are.

And I've been told that most "experiments" with throwing groups up against higher level monsters have shown that groups can defeat APL+7 sometimes. Which means 1st level characters fighting(and winning) against level 8 monsters.

Monster do get harder as they increase in level. However, the amount of difficulty is fairly small as you can likely tell from the released monsters

Level is VERY accurate in most cases, though. You don't have to look at a monster and say, "Whoa, it has an area of effect attack that does 40 damage on average. It'll kill the wizard if it hits, I can't use that monster." And this is because the damage the monsters do is based on the same formula as everything else. If 40 damage is appropriate for a 25th level monster(making up numbers now) then you won't see any 15th level monsters doing 40 damage.

Mike Mearls was a little taken aback by the fact that people were complaining that the dragon was too hard when I talked to him. He basically said "It's a 5th level monster, it should be perfectly appropriate." He had a confused look on his face for a large part of the con as people kept asking him about how powerful the dragon was until he later figured out that the dragon being used was from an older copy of the Monster Manual before they fixed a small piece of the math.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Its partly because angels in 3e (and earlier editions) were the servants of Good (only) Gods. In 4e, all gods have angels as far as I understand it. Its an Astral Sea type o' thing.

Devils, in the 4e cosmology, are actually all fallen servants of one particular god (essentially anti-angels (or exarchs?))

Demons don't even enter into this equation so far as I understand it.

c.i.d.

I thought that at first, but the story in the game that led to the angel coming after them seems perfectly fine even under the old paradigm that angels are the good guys.

The coming of the angel was the result of the actions of Gerheart, the mischievous pyro wizard played by Chris Tulach. He and the elf paladin (who was trying to keep the wizard out of trouble) played by Michele Carter managed to thoroughly *** off a seer who was the head of the church in the nation they’d previously been traveling through. (How they angered the seer is another story altogether). The seer had been biding her time, waiting until the PCs crossed into hostile lands before releasing this creature upon them.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Mike Mearls was a little taken aback by the fact that people were complaining that the dragon was too hard when I talked to him. He basically said "It's a 5th level monster, it should be perfectly appropriate." He had a confused look on his face for a large part of the con as people kept asking him about how powerful the dragon was until he later figured out that the dragon being used was from an older copy of the Monster Manual before they fixed a small piece of the math.

Wasn't Mike running sessions of that adventure at DDXP? Also...

The final encounter involves a big, bad, black dragon, a 4th level solo critter. I put it in there because, basically, a lot of 4e doubters have expressed the belief that characters won't die in 4e. I could've put in something a little easier but I figured, nah, let's show them that PCs can still die.

...it was apparently intended to be deadly.

 

[WotC_GregB]

I'd be interested to know why Greg feels he can use an angel as an adversary in 4E while he didn't feel comfortable doing so in 3E. He mentions this in the previous blog talking about the same encounter and doesn't really explain how or why 4E changes his opinion on it.

Mostly because the alignments felt so static. The creature's purpose felt defined by its alignment and its lore—this being especially true of creatures adopted from other mythology (like angels). I still felt comfortable repurposing some creatures, but I kept mostly away from those emblematic good creatures. The story text and description of the angel of vengeance, however, I guess made it slip into the purpose I needed it to fill, regardless of alignment.

I'm also kind of surprised that he'd choose the creature he chose and then be surprised how it played out. When I'm planning encounters I look less at CR and more at how often the creature will hit or affect my PCs with abilities and vice versa. This can be tricky in 3E due to the large variance in maths (ie/ low BAB vs high BAB, low save vs high save, etc) but I still find it works more predictably than going solely by CR. From what we've seen of 4E I think that approach would work even better with the smoothing out of the numbers so I'm not sure why he didn't see it coming.

I knew what I was getting into when I planned the encounter. On the other hand, it was also a test, and I wasn't quite sure how it would go. In Chris Perkins's game, our group of seven PCs faced off against a solo dragon (a black dragon, incidentally), which was 5 or 6 levels higher than us. Seeing how that battle went, I wanted to push the mechanics a little bit further and see how effectively one could run this kind of encounter. An interesting observation I made was that as the encounters get harder, characters behave more according to their role (striker, defender, controller, etc.). For instance, it became absolutely necessary for the paladin to be drawing the angel's ire in that fight, otherwise it likely would have been a TPK. The point is, I'm still trying to test the limits of the game system to see what variations on traditional level-equivalent encounters are possible.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Thanks for taking the time out to clarify.

Mostly because the alignments felt so static. The creature's purpose felt defined by its alignment and its lore—this being especially true of creatures adopted from other mythology (like angels). I still felt comfortable repurposing some creatures, but I kept mostly away from those emblematic good creatures. The story text and description of the angel of vengeance, however, I guess made it slip into the purpose I needed it to fill, regardless of alignment.

Fair enough. I still found it possible to use them as adversaries although there were plenty of cases where their nature didn't quite take them as far as attacking the PCs although they definitely still were involved in trying to obstruct what the PCs may have been up to. My current group has a similar situation with both a paladin and a mischief maker in the group and the paladin has stepped in several times to talk down planar agents sent by lawful or good churches. A single occasion did lead to combat against an angel - despite the efforts of the paladin - and as a result kicked off a great story arc of soul searching and redemption for the paladin.

I knew what I was getting into when I planned the encounter. On the other hand, it was also a test, and I wasn't quite sure how it would go. In Chris Perkins's game, our group of seven PCs faced off against a solo dragon (a black dragon, incidentally), which was 5 or 6 levels higher than us. Seeing how that battle went, I wanted to push the mechanics a little bit further and see how effectively one could run this kind of encounter. An interesting observation I made was that as the encounters get harder, characters behave more according to their role (striker, defender, controller, etc.). For instance, it became absolutely necessary for the paladin to be drawing the angel's ire in that fight, otherwise it likely would have been a TPK. The point is, I'm still trying to test the limits of the game system to see what variations on traditional level-equivalent encounters are possible.

Interesting comment about the roles performing more strictly as defined when they're put up against it. That's something you can't really account for just looking at the maths. In hindsight I suppose it does make sense that when you're under pressure you stick to your strengths as they will generally be your best odds.

 

[WotC_GregB]

From what I can tell from talking to the R&D people at DDXP, the designers truly do believe in the math of the new system. It doesn't matter WHICH creature the PCs are fighting, just what level they are.

And I've been told that most "experiments" with throwing groups up against higher level monsters have shown that groups can defeat APL+7 sometimes. Which means 1st level characters fighting(and winning) against level 8 monsters.

One thing I'm interested to see is whether this holds true at all levels. APL+7 is definitely stretching it, especially at first level. There are really too many factors for there to be a consistent estimate. It depends heavily upon how many people are in the group and what rolls are being fulfilled. I wonder whether the ability to fight higher level monsters increases or decreases or remains consistent as you go up in level. I've found about APL+5 is true for level 1-10, but does your survivability increase as you enter epic? It probably depends on other factors beyond the aforementioned elements. For instance, in Tome of Treasure (which I'm editing right now), there are many items that help you defy death. Similarly, a character's power selection (particularly a leader) becomes more influential as you acquire a wider gamut of powers. Ultimately, I suspect there is quite a bit of variation in what a party can withstand, anywhere from APL+3 (for a unbalanced, ill-equipped group) to APL +7 or 8 (for a group that has been built around survivability.)