WotC may have sent the Pinkertons to a magic leakers home. Update: WotC confirms it and has a response.

[Clint_L]

So is your hypothetical about stolen property or not? Because if it is stolen property, that's something for law enforcement to handle, not hired goons. If it's not stolen property, and you think law enforcement would be too heavy handed, why did you use that as your hypothetical?

edit- in case I wasn't clear, I don't think police would be appropriate here, I was talking about your hypothetical that you made in my prior comment. The hypothetical is not an appropriate comparison.

My hypothetical did not mention stolen property, no. Giving the YouTuber the benefit of the doubt, I did not supply a provenance for how the goods came to be in someone else's possession. The point is that this is Hasbro's property. It was not lawfully purchased. It doesn't matter whether it was stolen or a mistake. I used the term "police" because it is simpler to conceptualize than "pursue legal remedies."

But can we agree that if you see your recently missing bike, for which you have proof of ownership, in someone else's garage, it is still legally your bike?

I feel like if we can't agree on that, then there's nothing to discuss.

You don't own something that was not lawfully purchased from its legal owner.

By his own admission the person making these claims did not have a legal right to the magic cards. Hasbro was reclaiming its own property. I can't understand why we are attacking anyone for asserting their right to their own property.

The secondary claim is that Hasbro did so in an inappropriate manner. Has anyone alleged specific illegality on anyone's part (on the Hasbro end)? "Threatening" in the sense of telling someone that they are in legal jeopardy for, you know, failing to return your property is not "threatening" in the sense of, say, criminally issuing threats. If you find/take my wallet and I (or my representative) say, "give it back or I call the cops!" I am not threatening you. I am informing you of the potential consequences of your illegal actions.

Note that Hasbro seems to be assuming the best case scenario in dealing with this guy - they are accepting his story that this was all some honest mistake and are even reimbursing him with the product that he now claims to have wanted all along, even though according to his latest version of events Hasbro had nothing to do with how he got the cards.

This is like if I saw my bike in your garage, reclaimed it, but gave you a hundred bucks to cover your expenses, because that's what you claim you paid the guy you got it from.

Unless I am wrong in ways that Snarff will clarify. I am sure there are all kind of technical details that are woefully inadequate in my analogy.

 

[eyeheartawk]

Well, the best protection is living in a country that doesn't let everyone and their dog have a pistol, but that's a whole other non-ENworld discussion.

Right, but what about dogs that shoot bees out of their mouths?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Right, but what about dogs that shoot bees out of their mouths?

A grey area to be sure. They weren't banned in the UK until 2009.

 

[Gradine]

Okay but what about warforged that shoot bees out of their mouths?

 

[darjr]

Okay but what about warforged that shoot bees out of their mouths?

If WotC sent warforged that shot bees out if their mouths ti my door to collect magic cards I wouldn’t be mad

 

[OakenHart]

My hypothetical did not mention stolen property, no. Giving the YouTuber the benefit of the doubt, I did not supply a provenance for how the goods came to be in someone else's possession. The point is that this is Hasbro's property. It was not lawfully purchased. It doesn't matter whether it was stolen or a mistake. I used the term "police" because it is simpler to conceptualize than "pursue legal remedies."

But can we agree that if you see your recently missing bike, for which you have proof of ownership, in someone else's garage, it is still legally your bike?

I feel like if we can't agree on that, then there's nothing to discuss.

You don't own something that was not lawfully purchased from its legal owner.

By his own admission the person making these claims did not have a legal right to the magic cards. Hasbro was reclaiming its own property. I can't understand why we are attacking anyone for asserting their right to their own property.

The secondary claim is that Hasbro did so in an inappropriate manner. Has anyone alleged specific illegality on anyone's part (on the Hasbro end)? "Threatening" in the sense of telling someone that they are in legal jeopardy for, you know, failing to return your property is not "threatening" in the sense of, say, criminally issuing threats. If you find/take my wallet and I (or my representative) say, "give it back or I call the cops!" I am not threatening you. I am informing you of the potential consequences of your illegal actions.

In your hypothetical, the bike was stolen property whether specifically mentioned as such or not. It doesn't matter whether they bought it or not from a 3rd party, it is stolen property.

Of course in your hypothetical it is still legally their own bike. That's why the police are justified. And if the card situation was a similar situation, police would be justified. It is not a similar situation, so it is not. And is possibly a reason why WotC pursued this alternative route rather than law enforcement, but that can only be assumption on my own part.

As you're well aware I'm sure, something being legal or not does not have bearing on whether something is ethical or moral. Only whether it's lawful. Using an entity with a history that the Pinkertons do is with many people a completely unethical decision, and this is the crux of what people are getting hung up on.

We are still waiting on more details on whether there actually even was any illegality on the part of the recipient.

 

[Maxperson]

What sad is even in the UK police act like they have an incredibly dangerous job - and officers have been killed - but in the last 200 years like 95 officers have actually been killed in actual attempts to prevent crime on the British mainland (i.e. not Northern Ireland). We have 150k police.

No matter how you work it, police in the US die on the job at a drastically lower rate than many other professions - some of them not even seen as dangerous. And I'd have to check, but last I heard, the vast majority of US police fatalities were due to traffic collisions, except during the pandemic, when it was due to COVID (which was somehow being counted). That's not to say they shouldn't be armed, sadly I think that's not an option in the US, currently, but it's best to avoid glorifying it or acting like it's the major risk factor.

On that list of risky jobs was Taxi driver because they drive a lot. Well, police also drive a lot as part of their job. We had 245 police die in 2022 and are at 33 so far for 2023. The job is very dangerous which is why it made the list.

 

[p_johnston]

I'm with @Ruin Explorer here. To be %100 honest it does not matter how the Pinkertons operate in the modern era. They could be the most by the books, gentle, well respected security firm on the planet and it wouldn't matter because from the name Pinkerton has a very specific historical association for most people. When the average person hears the name Pinkerton in 2023 they will probably have 2 reactions. "Pinkertons still exist?" and "Pinkertons the violent union busting thugs?"

So in the 150ish years since the Pinkertons were a common name at no point have they attempted to rebrand or change their name. Hell they could call themselves the PIC (Pinkerton Investigative Company) and it would still distance themselves from their historical reputation. But they haven't and when Securitas purchased them they didn't. I can only think of 3 reason why that would be.
1) They are unaware of how most people see the Pinkerton name. (Which would mean every Leader of the organization over the last 100+ years is an idiot)
2) They are actively working to rehabilitate the name and bring more positive associations with it. (Which they haven't considering how out of the public eye they have been until recently)
3) They are aware of the reputation that is paired with the Pinkerton name and see it as a benefit.

 

[CommodoreKong]

Update from Linda Codega, sources tell her this isn't the first time WotC has used Pinkertons to track down MtG leaks:

Magic 'Raid' Wasn't First Time WotC Hired Pinkertons [UPDATED]

Pinkerton agents have been used to track down leaks and stolen Magic: The Gathering Cards “multiple times” before.

gizmodo.com

 

[Umbran]

But beyond anything else, PIs were not the correct solution to this problem.

Linda Cordero, over at Gizmodo, has a new article up that relates a couple of relevant bits.
1) "Robin M. Klimek, who has been the Director Security Risk Management at Hasbro, Inc. for 12 years, was previously the Director of Supply Chain Security Practice at Pinkerton Consulting & Investigations. The current Manager of Global Investigations is also a former Pinkerton agent."

So, no foolin', when some of Hasbro's past and present security leaders have worked for the Pinkerton Agency, they hire Pinkertons. This is about as surprising as water being wet.

2) There have been issues with actual outright theft of Magic cards before. I imagine that past informs the present.

All the assertions that say that such agents were not necessary seem based on the wisdom of hindsight, not based on what WotC verifiably knew at the time they were making decisions.