WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Chaosmancer]

Quasi-elemental planes tend to be extra intense, but can still be plenty interesting. Radiance already has a powerful healing location, and you can do so many cool things with light, color, reflection, etc. Ash has a lot of different forms and some interesting interactions with heat and cold. Salt can have so many different forms with giant crystals and salt storms and liquid salt that slows light. Dust has sand and rust monsters/dragons and empires and all kinds of fascinating decay situations. Etc. etc. Also remember that you can have chunks of other things in the elemental planes.

A mountain can be a big dumb rock or it can be Olympus.

Sure, but conservation of story. What can you do with the Quasi-Elemental plane of Dust that can't be done with a lower plane like the Grey Wastes of Hades? I can easily (and have easily) thrown an empire of decay and dust into the Shadowfell, which is a land of decay, dust and rot anyways. Salt can be interesting, but do I need an entire plane of salt or do I just need an area of salt the size of a small country somewhere else?

This extends, for me, into the elemental planes as well. The Elemental Plane of Water is just... the ocean. The only difference is that I can make things bigger, but since most oceans on most settings aren't planned out, and I can have "the ocean but bigger" in the Fey wild and "the ocean but scarier" in the Shadowfell... do I need the Plane of Water really? The only thing I really use it for is for the Marid genies, but that's it.

So, if I barely need the Plane of Water, do I need the Quasi-PAra-Elemental plane of Salt and Ice known as the Stinging Storm? It is a cool weather effect (salt hail) but that seems to get so specific as to be really hard to use.

 

[Remathilis]

What used to be the para-elemental planes are the border regions between the four elemental planes, but AFAICT the quasi-elemental planes are not mentioned at all. Actually, even the positive and negative planes are mentioned at the beginning of the planar chapter of the DMG, but they have no detailed description.

In honesty the positive and negative planes were a waste of space since they are devoid of nearly any life, locations and are instantly fatal without DM magic. They served the purpose of explaining where positive and negative energy came from and that's about it. I much prefer the feywild and shadowfell as the "actually usable" versions of them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Who’s talking about removing anything? As far asI know, there is currently no plane of salt in 5e.

WotC apparently already used their "Wand of Simplification" on the cosmology, and I believe the game is the lesser for it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's why I like the 4e "Elemental Chaos" approach. If you ever do need a quasi-elemental plane of salt then there's probably at least one floating around in the Elemental Chaos, but if you don't need one there's no need to categorize it in advance.

They already categorized it, and then they too it away. That's their right, but I think it affects the richness of the world in a negative way. Just my opinion as a 2e and Planescape fan.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but conservation of story. What can you do with the Quasi-Elemental plane of Dust that can't be done with a lower plane like the Grey Wastes of Hades? I can easily (and have easily) thrown an empire of decay and dust into the Shadowfell, which is a land of decay, dust and rot anyways. Salt can be interesting, but do I need an entire plane of salt or do I just need an area of salt the size of a small country somewhere else?

This extends, for me, into the elemental planes as well. The Elemental Plane of Water is just... the ocean. The only difference is that I can make things bigger, but since most oceans on most settings aren't planned out, and I can have "the ocean but bigger" in the Fey wild and "the ocean but scarier" in the Shadowfell... do I need the Plane of Water really? The only thing I really use it for is for the Marid genies, but that's it.

So, if I barely need the Plane of Water, do I need the Quasi-PAra-Elemental plane of Salt and Ice known as the Stinging Storm? It is a cool weather effect (salt hail) but that seems to get so specific as to be really hard to use.

Again YOU conserve your story, not WotC.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In honesty the positive and negative planes were a waste of space since they are devoid of nearly any life, locations and are instantly fatal without DM magic. They served the purpose of explaining where positive and negative energy came from and that's about it. I much prefer the feywild and shadowfell as the "actually usable" versions of them.

I prefer both. Not everything in the universe has to cater to the PCs.

 

[Maxperson]

In honesty the positive and negative planes were a waste of space since they are devoid of nearly any life, locations and are instantly fatal without DM magic. They served the purpose of explaining where positive and negative energy came from and that's about it. I much prefer the feywild and shadowfell as the "actually usable" versions of them.

The feywild is interesting, but isn't even close to being what the positive plane is and the plane of Shadow(shadowfell) isn't even close to what the negative plane is. The positive and negative planes serve a function, even if no one ever goes there.

 

[Incenjucar]

Sure, but conservation of story. What can you do with the Quasi-Elemental plane of Dust that can't be done with a lower plane like the Grey Wastes of Hades? I can easily (and have easily) thrown an empire of decay and dust into the Shadowfell, which is a land of decay, dust and rot anyways. Salt can be interesting, but do I need an entire plane of salt or do I just need an area of salt the size of a small country somewhere else?

This extends, for me, into the elemental planes as well. The Elemental Plane of Water is just... the ocean. The only difference is that I can make things bigger, but since most oceans on most settings aren't planned out, and I can have "the ocean but bigger" in the Fey wild and "the ocean but scarier" in the Shadowfell... do I need the Plane of Water really? The only thing I really use it for is for the Marid genies, but that's it.

So, if I barely need the Plane of Water, do I need the Quasi-PAra-Elemental plane of Salt and Ice known as the Stinging Storm? It is a cool weather effect (salt hail) but that seems to get so specific as to be really hard to use.

This is a restriction you place on yourself that has no particular merit outside of your own preferences for scale and which can be extrapolated to any setting location. Your whole campaign can fit inside a single dungeon if you want.

 

[Faolyn]

That's why I like the 4e "Elemental Chaos" approach. If you ever do need a quasi-elemental plane of salt then there's probably at least one floating around in the Elemental Chaos, but if you don't need one there's no need to categorize it in advance.

Personally, I prefer Limbo/Elemental Chaos in place of any of the elemental planes. But that's just me.

Actually, in my own Cosmos, Arcadia (no relation to the Wheel's Arcadia) is sort of a combination of the Feywild, Arborea, Bytopia, the Outlands, the Beastlands, Mechanus, Limbo/Elemental Chaos, Shadowlands, and Pandemonium. The further you get away from "civilized" areas, the wilder and more unfinished the plane becomes. Archfey, genie nobles, beast lords, and clockwork reagents all live together (in their own domains) in Arcadia.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Personally, I prefer Limbo/Elemental Chaos in place of any of the elemental planes. But that's just me.

A plane of endlessly lowering poles and an excellent beat would be better than anything the Great Wheel offers, TBH

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

WotC apparently already used their "Wand of Simplification" on the cosmology, and I believe the game is the lesser for it.

You like the game less. That doesn't mean that the game is worse. I'm pretty sure that the majority of players do not care an itch about a whole plane of salt being removed.

 

[Nikosandros]

You like the game less. That doesn't mean that the game is worse. I'm pretty sure that the majority of players do not care an itch about a whole plane of salt being removed.

You are just pouring salt on the wounds...

 

[Mecheon]

WotC apparently already used their "Wand of Simplification" on the cosmology, and I believe the game is the lesser for it.

While I am a noted person who loves his elementals, let's not even pretend the various elemental planes were interesting. I think the most milleage was that one time that person in Dragon magazine took over Greyhawk and used its gods to mine the Plane of Salt to sell elsewhere, and I say this as probably like the one person in the world who remembers or likes the Facets (The salt-creatures who can combine together). They're not 'complex', they're square filling, and sometimes dumb square filling (I still have a bone to pick with the Plane of Steam and the multiple bits and bobs where the book goes 'oh no, its not actually the Plane of Steam despite the name, but someone wrote it in a book years ago so despite Plane of Mist being the more appropriate name we're not changing it). The Elemental Planes in general aren't places you really want to visit, but moreso some variety of hostile landscape that blocks you from getting to your particular destination, and, well, an infinite expanse of Progress Blockers isn't all that interesting

Elemental Chaos gives some interesting stuff as by mushing it all together into one, you've got choice. Sure you can cross the Water to try and get to the Tower of Salt, but given that's going to be a constant war and have no subtlty to the approach, can always take advantage of the fact salt is a mineral and find your way in through an alternate path, perhaps a long abandoned tunnel linking to more earth related sides of things

(Also like, let's also just be honest, there's an easy in-canon explanation: In some random Planescape creature book there were these worms one of the Guilds released in the elemental to bind the elemental planes together. Worms won. There's your explanation)

 

[Micah Sweet]

While I am a noted person who loves his elementals, let's not even pretend the various elemental planes were interesting. I think the most milleage was that one time that person in Dragon magazine took over Greyhawk and used its gods to mine the Plane of Salt to sell elsewhere, and I say this as probably like the one person in the world who remembers or likes the Facets (The salt-creatures who can combine together). They're not 'complex', they're square filling, and sometimes dumb square filling (I still have a bone to pick with the Plane of Steam and the multiple bits and bobs where the book goes 'oh no, its not actually the Plane of Steam despite the name, but someone wrote it in a book years ago so despite Plane of Mist being the more appropriate name we're not changing it). The Elemental Planes in general aren't places you really want to visit, but moreso some variety of hostile landscape that blocks you from getting to your particular destination, and, well, an infinite expanse of Progress Blockers isn't all that interesting

Elemental Chaos gives some interesting stuff as by mushing it all together into one, you've got choice. Sure you can cross the Water to try and get to the Tower of Salt, but given that's going to be a constant war and have no subtlty to the approach, can always take advantage of the fact salt is a mineral and find your way in through an alternate path, perhaps a long abandoned tunnel linking to more earth related sides of things

(Also like, let's also just be honest, there's an easy in-canon explanation: In some random Planescape creature book there were these worms one of the Guilds released in the elemental to bind the elemental planes together. Worms won. There's your explanation)

So you didn't like them. That's fine. Doesn't mean the old way was dumb, just that you didn't like it and prefer the new way. Why can't people just like what they like? With the notable personal weakness of 5e Ravenloft, I'm not going around talking about how the way new products are created is dumb.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Again YOU conserve your story, not WotC.

But WoTC is the one telling the story. They have to be the one to enact the changes or use the pieces.

Honestly, did ANYTHING ever happen with the Stinging Storm? Did you even know it existed? Does anything live there? Is there any point in going there? You can only publish a finite amount of things, so focusing your attention becomes necessary for the good of the stuff.

Out of all the elemental planes, do you know what gets used? The City of Brass. Because that's pretty much the only part of all these planes that has anything meaningful written about it. Everything else is just a featureless expanse, which means it is really hard to use for anything without making up your own things to put in it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The feywild is interesting, but isn't even close to being what the positive plane is and the plane of Shadow(shadowfell) isn't even close to what the negative plane is. The positive and negative planes serve a function, even if no one ever goes there.

And like an appendix, they aren't really that necessary.

Sure, the positive plane is where all positive energy comes from.... why do I need a plane for that? Fire doesn't all come from the plane of fire, I can generate it by smashing flint and steel. Positive energy is the energy of life... why not just say that life generates positive energy. Done. No plane needed.

What is negative energy? Just like cold is an noticeable absence of kinetic energy at a molecular level, negative energy is just a reduction in positive energy. It doesn't need to be created, it is just energy flow. Done. No plane needed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is a restriction you place on yourself that has no particular merit outside of your own preferences for scale and which can be extrapolated to any setting location. Your whole campaign can fit inside a single dungeon if you want.

So, you don't think that having so many planes that many of them are just names without any description or depth isn't a problem?

These planes have existed for decades. How much has officially been published detailing the Great Conflagration? Enough to warrant reprinting it?

 

[Incenjucar]

WotC doesn't need to outline every possible location in every possible plane or else discard it. If you don't have an idea for using something, you don't have to use it. Even if they put fifty locations in the negative plane, you might not use a single one of them.

--

Edit: Look at my avatar and guess if I have a hard time using the elemental planes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But WoTC is the one telling the story. They have to be the one to enact the changes or use the pieces.

Honestly, did ANYTHING ever happen with the Stinging Storm? Did you even know it existed? Does anything live there? Is there any point in going there? You can only publish a finite amount of things, so focusing your attention becomes necessary for the good of the stuff.

Out of all the elemental planes, do you know what gets used? The City of Brass. Because that's pretty much the only part of all these planes that has anything meaningful written about it. Everything else is just a featureless expanse, which means it is really hard to use for anything without making up your own things to put in it.

Have you read any of the Planescape setting? Lots of WotC IP right there for them to add into the current edition.

 

[Lanefan]

So, you don't think that having so many planes that many of them are just names without any description or depth isn't a problem?

Not at all.

It's the same principle as leaving blank areas on a setting map - they're there to be filled in later as, when, and if needed.