WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Bohandas]

I thought that the primary purpose of Planescape was to have philosophers with clubs punching each other in a planar city.

I thought it's purpose was to make everyone speak with a cockney accent

 

[Bohandas]

That was the point of Sigil. But Planescape always had this tension between 'this a wildly expansive setting that covers every bizarre corner of the multiverse and every other setting we've ever written!' and 'here's a city at the centre of everything where everything important happens so you end up staying here most of the time anyway'.

Or at least where the adventures all happen.

Whether the city is actually all that important is only told and never shown. It's true significance basically seems to boil down to "it's a port city"

The developers missed an opportunity in not holding it up as an example of the power of belief in the setting - it's the most influential place in the setting simply because people believe it is, and for no reason other than that

 

[Umbran]

It is. There was an advanced earth bender in Korea who manipulated magma.

Korea? That's not a nation in the Avatar fiction.
And the canonical character most folks will remember who does lava/magma bending is Bolin, from Legends of Korra. A couple of past Avatars are said to have used the technique, and there's an antagonist in Legends of Korra as well.

 

[Faolyn]

I do not believe anyone is arguing for the inclusion of SA, HOWEVER it is not off the table.

Now before you rush off and say AnotherGuy is promoting SA - that is NOT what I'm doing. Let me explain - I just had a quick look at part of my DVD shelf and I saw the movie Devil's Advocate (spoilers to follow)

Spoiler: Scene

In one particular scene Charlize Theron's character reveals to her husband, played by Keanu Reeves, that she was raped by Al Pacino's character (Reeve's boss who is also Lucifer). Keanu Reeve's believes she is suffering a nervous breakdown as he informs her that Al Pacino was in court with him all day long.
This is a scene about SA, and we are dealing with Lucifer who reveals throughout the show that his powers do bleed into the supernatural so there is a strong possibility that Charlize's character was indeed a victim of SA.

If you are militant a scene/story similar to this could never be used and that might be fine for your table, some tables though have a higher tolerance and could include a scene such as this which backgrounds the darkness but illuminates the power of the BBEG.

Personally, I do not think it is valuable to be discussing SA in D&D, and certainly not here - not among enthusiasts who are here to share experiences/knowledge, homebrew rules and upcoming material. I would think, we know better. So, I think its best we do not accuse fellow posters of arguing for the inclusion of the vilest material.

OK, here's the thing.

In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.

But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."

If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.

I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.

 

[Zardnaar]

OK, here's the thing.

In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.

But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."

If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.

I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.

I think nuance gets lost between including SA at all (as a back story) to something that can happen in campaign.

Either way you probably need player buy in.

I never include it myself and wouldn't join a game of randoms advertising say an R18 ultra gritty game.

I would only do that with a trusted friend running it.

Eg Game of Thrones R18 game. If you're fine with the show bad things can happen.

That might appeal to me but not with randoms.

Basically let villains be villains but some of the gory stuff needs player buy in. PG-13 with f bombs is usually how I cover things session 0 but I use game of thrones example to cover my bases.

 

[AnotherGuy]

OK, here's the thing.

In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.

Bold emphasis mine. No, that is certainly not how I was imagining it.
The PCs would be doing the investigating to catch the BBEG. Charlize would most definitely be an NPC.
Hmmm, I'm also kinda bummed because I consider that a real good movie and its partly spoiled for you.
I do recommend you watch it when possible.

But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."

If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.

We are on the same page. Like I said earlier I'm pretty sure all if not the overwhelming majority of people that spend their time conversing with other hobbyists about homebrew rules, solutions and the latest stuff coming out know better than to torture or SA their players' characters.

I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.

Yes there are stories for yesteryear, especially when it was a different time, different demographic within the hobby, mono-culture AND level of maturity. I do not find it helpful to bring up bad instances then and say they exist now. I was a different DM 30, 25, 20, even 15 years ago.
Hopefully I'm better.

 

[Faolyn]

Bold emphasis mine. No, that is certainly not how I was imagining it.
The PCs would be doing the investigating to catch the BBEG. Charlize would most definitely be an NPC.
Hmmm, I'm also kinda bummed because I consider that a real good movie and its partly spoiled for you.
I do recommend you watch it when possible.

It's OK. I probably will forget should I ever get around to watching it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

We are on the same page. Like I said earlier I'm pretty sure all if not the overwhelming majority of people that spend their time conversing with other hobbyists about homebrew rules, solutions and the latest stuff coming out know better than to torture or SA their players' characters.

You would be surprised that the number of people who bring something edgy and repugnant right up to the table and plop it down in the middle like a dead mouse, then look around expecting to be applauded for their bravery and creativity.

"We killed the bad guys. Let me tell you what I do to the bodies!"

 

[Micah Sweet]

Korea? That's not a nation in the Avatar fiction.
And the canonical character most folks will remember who does lava/magma bending is Bolin, from Legends of Korra. A couple of past Avatars are said to have used the technique, and there's an antagonist in Legends of Korra as well.

Korra. Darn that autocorrect!

 

[Micah Sweet]

OK, here's the thing.

In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.

But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."

If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.

I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.

Ok. I was talking about backstory, and the concept that such things exist in the setting, without needing to show them in game.

 

[RealAlHazred]

You would be surprised that the number of people who bring something edgy and repugnant right up to the table and plop it down in the middle like a dead mouse, then look around expecting to be applauded for their bravery and creativity.

"We killed the bad guys. Let me tell you what I do to the bodies!"

Well do I remember a guy who played at a table of Living Greyhawk I ran in NYC. Nobody knew this guy, he was just J. Random Gamer off the street; he had a little bit of a foreign accent, so maybe he was a visitor to the City and decided to get a game in before flying back home. Anyway, the group deals with the bad guy in the module, and this guy decides to have his spellcaster cast summon monster to get a bunch of azers (sort of like fire dwarves) to do unspeakable things to the bodies. After the fight. I would like to say I stopped him on moral grounds, but at the time I was myself a stranger to everyone there, so I just stopped him by referring to the rules of the spell, which pretty much prevented him from being able to do what he wanted.

EDIT: To be clear, we're talking, like, 20 years ago. Things would have gone markedly differently today, as I've learned a thing or two about running games over the two decades since.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Korea? That's not a nation in the Avatar fiction.
And the canonical character most folks will remember who does lava/magma bending is Bolin, from Legends of Korra. A couple of past Avatars are said to have used the technique, and there's an antagonist in Legends of Korra as well.

"Korean is the most perfect creature ever to sanctify the earth with the imprint of its foot." -- Chiun, fleshbender (probably)

 

[Chaosmancer]

I do not believe anyone is arguing for the inclusion of SA, HOWEVER it is not off the table.

Now before you rush off and say AnotherGuy is promoting SA - that is NOT what I'm doing. Let me explain - I just had a quick look at part of my DVD shelf and I saw the movie Devil's Advocate (spoilers to follow)

Spoiler: Scene

In one particular scene Charlize Theron's character reveals to her husband, played by Keanu Reeves, that she was raped by Al Pacino's character (Reeve's boss who is also Lucifer). Keanu Reeve's believes she is suffering a nervous breakdown as he informs her that Al Pacino was in court with him all day long.
This is a scene about SA, and we are dealing with Lucifer who reveals throughout the show that his powers do bleed into the supernatural so there is a strong possibility that Charlize's character was indeed a victim of SA.

If you are militant a scene/story similar to this could never be used and that might be fine for your table, some tables though have a higher tolerance and could include a scene such as this which backgrounds the darkness but illuminates the power of the BBEG.

Personally, I do not think it is valuable to be discussing SA in D&D, and certainly not here - not among enthusiasts who are here to share experiences/knowledge, homebrew rules and upcoming material. I would think, we know better. So, I think its best we do not accuse fellow posters of arguing for the inclusion of the vilest material.

Here's the thing though. There are many many things that could be used to "background the darkness" and "illuminate the power of the BBEG" WITHOUT it being Sexual Assault. Remember, this line of discussion started with talk of a Ravenloft setting which focused on Sexual Assault stories, and someone saying that it was a good decision to remove and change that setting.

Here is another thing to consider. Take that Movie, The Devil's Advocate, off your shelf and look at the rating. Notice it is rated R? Now, tell me, is DnD official material rated R? Do we have "for adults only" sections of official material? No, we do not. DnD, if it could be rated, would be rated PG-13.

Now, you can choose to include what you called "the vilest material" in a home game. No one is going to stop you. However, it is so vile, and so without purpose, that its use can be little more than shock value, unless handled in a way that I truly do not think an RPG is capable of handling. Just like sadistic torture, it has no value outside of causing extreme harm.

 

[Alzrius]

Here is another thing to consider. Take that Movie, The Devil's Advocate, off your shelf and look at the rating. Notice it is rated R? Now, tell me, is DnD official material rated R? Do we have "for adults only" sections of official material? No, we do not. DnD, if it could be rated, would be rated PG-13.

I'm pretty sure it was rated R for language and nudity, rather than any discussion of sexual assault.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It doesn't matter if you could tell the difference or not. In the games where they were ignored, those planes still existed. In the ones where they were removed, they did not exist.

Your argument is basically that if I don't use or bring up orcs in one Forgotten Realms campaign, orcs suddenly do not exist in that world for that campaign, but do exist in the Forgotten Realms in all the others where I do use them.

It doesn't matter that you can't tell the difference between them existing but not being talked about, and being removed? The fact that the setting suffers no changes from the change means nothing? I think that makes a fairly big difference when you want to claim that these planes exist to explain fundamental things like life and undeath.

Show me where I've used the 2e game alter how the 5e game works? The 2e version of the Rock of Bral adds to the incredibly weak 5e version. It doesn't replace it the way you are trying to do.

I need to explain your games to you now? You'd think with how many times you've quoted old, out-of-date lore and setting details and claiming that they must still be true, that you wouldn't need me to point them out.

You mean when I responded to @Remathilis and then you quoted me responding to him which started this discussion? The same post where you asked me about why the positive and negative planes should be there?

Here's your post in case you want to look at it. WotC - WotC needs an Elon Musk

Remathilis has me blocked. I cannot read his post, so I thought you were just posting out in the wild. A post which followed quite closely to my post discussing why the elemental planes aren't too useful. And instead of me saying "no, these things aren't true" I said that the planes weren't serving the purpose you seemed to think.

So, my apologies that someone else blocking me caused me to assume your post was related to the topic I was discussing. But, you might want to re-read that post you linked, because I never asked you a single question in that post. Sure, I said "why do I need a plane for that" but it was a rhetorical device, as I demonstrated immediately afterwards that the answer was "I don't".

Um. That's the 5e cosmology as quoted from the DMG. That's exactly how it works by default. There is no Great Wheel in fact. It's just an imaginary construct some settings use to explain the planes.

And it does address what you said. You incorrectly claimed Bytopia was tied to the Great Wheel. It isn't because there is no true Great Wheel. Then you said that Bytopia wasn't a part of every cosmology. In 5e it is, even Eberron which is mostly closed off from it. 5e tied Eberron to the greater multiverse, thereby adding in Bytopia to that setting in a tenuous manner.

Okay, you don't understand the point. So, I'll explain it again.

I do not care that the "Great Wheel" isn't a real wheel. That's what the text you quoted talked about. That the planes aren't actually arranged in a wheel shape. That's why they talk about not being able look at Mount Celestial from the outside. I still call it the "Great Wheel" because... that's its name. So, stop acting like I don't understand that the Great Wheel Cosmology isn't literally organized in a Wheel shape.

What I was referring to is that Bytopia is tied to the Great Wheel, because it is in the Great Wheel, but it isn't in the World Axis. Maybe you don't believe me, but here are all the locations officially listed in the World Axis.

Prime Material Plane
Astral Sea

• The Verdant Isles of Arvandor
• The Red Prison of Carceri
• The Radiant Throne of Celestia
• The Iron Fortress of Chernoggar
• Haemnathuun, the Blood Lord
• The Bright City of Hestavar
• The Darkened Pillars of Kalandurren
• The Nine Hells of Baator
• The Howling Depths of Pandemonium
• The Gray Waste of Pluton
• The White Desert of Shom
• Tu'Narath
• The Endless Night Tytherion

Elemental Chaos

• The Abyss
• The City of Brass
• The Keening Delve
• The Ninth Bastion
• Zerthadlun

The Feywild
The Shadowfell

Do you notice some missing names? Like... Bytopia? Dothion, Shurrock? These places don't exist in the World Axis. So, as soon as they say "one of the fundamental planes is Bytopia" they have staked out the claim that the Great Wheel, even if it is in the shape of a Trapezoid, is the reality of the setting. THIS is what I am talking about. Bytopia is part of the Great Wheel, but it isn't part of many other cosmologies.

I reject your False Dichotomy and your attempt to have me say or imply something I didn't say or imply. Sexual assault wasn't a part of my quote or yours, since the post you quoted was talking only about normal violence and then I responded to you on that normal violence. Perhaps you didn't read the original quote to understand only read to respond, which is a recurring problem you seem to have. When you do that you get things grossly wrong, like you just did with me here.

So yes, you did post something that was waaaaaay out in left field. Don't do that.

You realize that the post you are talking about was in response to someone who was asking why we would allow violence if we don't allow Sexual Assault, right? So, as part of a larger discussion, your post followed that context. I'm sorry if you didn't read enough posts, or if that user has you blocked, but your lack of understanding of the context of the discussion is not my problem.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sure, if the default is that important to you, rather than providing options so more player's interest are included.

So, your preferences are entirely benign, and I'm terrible for not just accepting that.

My preferences are fine... as long as I'm fine denying other people their interests and not including them.

Double Standard much?

Sexual assault and brutal torture can inform a PC or NPC's backstory, however, even if you understandably don't want them on camera in the game. Tanis Half-Elven, for example, is the product of rape. Lots of movies and TV shows use these subjects that way.

Sure they can inform their backstory. So can having a puppy. Backstories are choices. They are things we can decide. And maybe we should be REALLY CAREFUL about pulling the trigger on making some of the single most vile things parts of the game.

Also, movies and TV shows are quite different than RPGs in this respect. Just because it shows up in a movie, doesn't mean it should be in official products.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, if you are looking for exactly true . . .

In the 1e Manual of the Planes they call out Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi as inhabitants of the energy planes and Trillochs as immigrants to the negative material plane.

Apparently there are places and structures in the 1e negative material plane. "The Negative Material plane is eternally dark, its structures and towers made up of physical, solid blackness."

They also talk about a couple of things on the energy plane border areas as places to go.

"Towers: Ringing the Positive Material plane is a scattered group of great towers, massive structures of the heaviest elemental material available for that quasi-plane (blue flame, lead, solidified clouds, or ice). These towers extend into the Positive Material plane on thin peninsulas of quasi-elemental material. Some of these peninsulas so thin that a halfling could touch the Positive Energy plane on both sides. These towers are normally abandoned, but occasionally powerful creatures dwell within—high-level wizards, druids researching the nature of the Positive Material plane, or exiled Powers from the lower outer planes. The origin of these towers is as yet unknown, but it is noted that the intrusions of the Positive Material plane do not overcome the elemental peninsulas or the area around them."

"Citadels: Travelers in the planes near the Negative Material plane often report lights and activities within that plane very close to the quasi-elemental shores. These mysterious citadels are apparently domed and complete fortresses or cities. They are tied to the quasi-plane by a thin rope of elemental material, so as to prevent their being lost in the negative energies beyond. The inhabitants of these citadels vary according to the tale: great monsters, quasi-elementals on the verge of becoming archomentals, fell necromancers, liches, and lords of the undead further strengthening the ties between such creatures and the Negative Material plane. In truth, these citadels must be discovered by the travelers and are left as special encounters for the DM."

In the 3e Manual of the Planes for the positive energy plane they call out ravids and xag-ya. "Some outsiders make the Positive Energy Plane their home. The best-known of these are the ravids, which tend to dwell in the quieter areas of the plane, but the energon known as the xag-ya is also common, even in the deepest heart of the plane."

So 3.5 Eberron's Irian adds Lumi and Lantern Archons? I have never really delved into a lot of the specifics of the Eberron planar cosmology beyond knowing there are 12+1 planes and they move in and out of conjunctions.

The 3e MotP also talks about some features of the positive material plane

"Edge Zones
The edge zones are a reference for quiet areas on the plane, like islands or shores on the seething hotbed of energy. These regions have the minor positive-dominant trait and are dotted with bits of flotsam from other
planes, including floating citadels, bits of tattered astral haze, and shards of other planes. The more solid pieces of the edge zones are used as outposts by creatures powerful enough to weather the changing nature of the plane itself. Such strongholds must be well protected, because tides of more intense positive energy could sweep over the edge zone at any time.
The Hospice
A particular location within an edge zone, the Hospice is a floating citadel with a large outcropping of rock raised as a shield against the more lethal energies of the plane. The Hospice and the area within 300 feet of it have the minor positive-dominant trait, though the structure sometimes has to relocate in order for this phenomenon to be maintained.
The Hospice is home to a small community of holy knights and healers dedicated to the healing arts. The order is legendary for taking badly wounded individuals and restoring them to health, and the members know spells and procedures that allow the healing of otherwise incurable ailments. Their ability to treat diseases on this plane is limited by the nature of the plane itself, but even then the Hospice community may know of effective treatments that do not involve positive energy.
The Hospice is protected by a number of golems in addition to its humanoid staff. Good-aligned individuals from a dozen planes staff the Hospice. While they would not turn away an evil individual, they do keep less trustworthy patients in locked wards.
Imprisoning Cells
Particularly powerful individuals can be effectively imprisoned by dumping their physical forms or their spirit-bonded souls into a prison protected from positive energy and sent onto the Positive Energy Plane. While not a long-term solution (such prisons are invariably opened by some curious traveler or swept through a vortex onto another plane), these imprisoning cells keep items and individuals away from the rest of the planes for decades or even generations."

3e has some features and adventuring hooks for the negative plane as well:

"Doldrums
Certain regions on the Negative Energy Plane are less deadly than others, reducing the negative-dominant trait from major to minor or even removing it entirely. These areas, called the doldrums, are relatively static on the plane, so towers, cities, and other structures can be built at their locations.
The perils of such places are twofold. The most obvious threat is the hostile life (and unlife) in the area. A second threat is that the borders of a doldrums area may fail and the deadly tides of negative energy once again wash over the region. Necromancers in particular favor the doldrums for their lairs.
Death Heart
The best-known location within one of the major doldrums, Death Heart is an entire spired city constructed within a hollow metal sphere one mile in diameter that drifted in from some long-dead alternate Material Plane. While the exterior of the sphere has a minor negative-dominant trait, its interior is free of the baneful negative energy of the plane. That protection failed to save the city’s inhabitants.
The city was founded as an experimental utopian community. Originally called the Heart of the Void, it was designed by its mysterious masters to be a place untainted by other beings and schools of thought. In reality, it was quickly overrun by the undead, who feasted on the flesh and souls of the students within. Now its towers and plazas are empty except for the undead invaders. Here may be found all varieties of undead, including not only energy-draining creatures such as wraiths, wights, and spectres, but more mundane skeletons, zombies, and mummies. Several liches and powerful vampires claim this sphere as their home.
Rumors carried by the mercanes state that usually the various evil factions within the Heart of the Void are engaged in perpetual war with one another. But now a particularly dangerous individual, a vampiric minotaur, has brokered peace among the factions and has encouraged further research into the nature of the city and the plane itself. The mercanes believe that the vampiric minotaur’s eventual goal is to steer the city to another plane and use his undead minions to wreak havoc there.
Castles Perilous
Given the large number of undead creatures in residence on the Negative Energy Plane, there is less tendency to use the Negative Energy Plane as a repository for evil prisoners and dangerous items. However, good-aligned prisoners and benevolent items are often imprisoned here, usually in towers of pitted iron with sealed gates. These prisons are well trapped and often heavily guarded.
Some hold celestials or good-aligned artifacts not easily destroyed, while others contain paladins in stasis and other items and individuals baneful to the undead. The presence of these castles perilous is often a reason that Material Plane travelers (especially those of good alignment) come to this plane."


Irian and Mabar and the Shadowfell and such seem like definite attempts to make these types of cosmological features more suitable for adventures than the great wheel energy plane set up, but the older Manual of the Planes great wheel in-depth descriptions also have features for them and just like the later Mabar, the borders are more suitable than deep into the plane. So it is more like a step further on the same continuum than a quantum jump of nothing to something. 1e PH and DMG and MM mention energy material planes and there is some discussion of their relationship to spells and some monsters, but then the Manual of Planes fleshes them out a bit with some features to explore or use as planar narrative elements.

I admit I skimmed this (running late and just trying to catch up) but it is good that these places weren't how they were described in the books I read them in originally.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I believe magma bending is under Earth, not fire.

Ah, you are correct, my bad

 

[Chaosmancer]

The specific cosmological set up.

Four elements is one.

Five elements with metal and wood is another.

Four elements plus void is another.

Yin Yang.

Dry versus Moist, Hot versus Cold.

Elemental Chaos versus Astral Sea is a big cosmological divide for the 4e World Axis, a bit similar in some big ways to the Inner versus outer planes of the Great Wheel.

If this is the case, then arguing that the Elemental Chaos isn't good because it means that Fire isn't "fundamental to the World" seems bizarre. Because that fundamental nature is only a perception due to the organization of the planes. You are admitting that a different organization works, just has a different focus. This has nothing to do with spells, monsters, or anything else. It is all bound up in philosophy.

I am not saying good or bad, I am saying different cosmological import. Mixed elementals instead of themed elementals was a 4e creation that supported the Elemental Chaos aspect of 4e cosmology. Going with just the four elements for elementals, or the themed planar elementals or a periodic chart elementals supports and reinforces different cosmological setups. Not better or worse, different.

Okay, yeah, a cosmology set up with four perfectly divided elemental planes is different than a cosmology with a mixed set of elemental planes. But that isn't the statement you started with. You started with:

"With the Great Wheel's four big elements instead of a one roiling elemental chaos it is more support for having the distinctions between elements, for things like elementals, elemental casters and schools of magic, etc throughout the game system. There is a different narrative power if a pyromancer is someone tapping into a core fundamental building block of the world that can be seen in a scheme applicable to lots of aspects of the game rather than just a flavor of magic unconnected to anything else."

You were then asked how fire in the Elemental Chaos, which was used as a fundamental building block of the world wasn't a fundemental part of the world. And you responded

"Because in an elemental chaos world the elements collectively are the building blocks, not the individual categorized elements. Fire would be part of the elemental chaos the same way acids would be or lightning or storms. There is nothing fundamental to the four element division in an elemental chaos. You can map individual things in an elemental chaos to the four elements, but it is not necessarily inherent to the concept."

But.... this is true in the Great Wheels individualized planes too. The Material Plane for the Great Wheel isn't made of Fire and nothing else. It is made of Fire, Air, Earth and Water. The elements collectively. But you said this made it different, only as important as things like lightning or acid. And when I point out that lightning and acid are very much building blocks of the world... you reply that they aren't unless they have unique bespoke planes.

You are just circling at this point. Fire is fundamental because the cosmology says fire is fundamental, so changing the cosmology changes that Fire is fundamental so it is no longer fundamental but only one of many pieces. It is all just a great big loop of logic that doesn't have an ending. Heck, even in a Yin and Yang universe, fire still exists the same way as it does in every other cosmology. The only difference is maybe philosophy. It doesn't change the narrative at all.

So.... if you have a logic here, I'm not following it. You seem to be meandering just to find a way to say you don't like it.

No but the cosmological importance of fire is different if it is just one part of elemental nature versus a cosmological element in itself.

But in both versions it is just one part of Elemental Nature. It is just HOW that relationship is portrayed. One version shows them mixing. The other version shows them separated. But in either case it is just part of the whole.

That seems an incorrect overextension of the argument about the cosmological import to "must be" and "only."

But you were trying to explain why you don't think the Elemental Chaos works. If you don't want them mixed, you want them seperated. There aren't a whole lot of other options here.

In a cosmology of water as fundamental, you fit acid into the cosmological framework of water. In a modern scientific cosmological framework you fit acid into a PH balance aspect of fundamental aspects of the universe and generally do not put the four elements as the four fundamental aspects of the universe.

Elemental Chaos can be Chaos of the four elements chaotically mixing in irregular amounts or not be bound by the four elements framework at all.

Elemental Chaos can work for an Avatar cosmology, but how much narrative power the cosmology will have can vary by how it ties to the other elements or does not. A non-four elements elemental chaos can logically work with the airbender world setup, but it does not track as well as a four elements cosmology would and would have different narrative impacts the more it came in and flavored the world.

But the DnD "all four elements are a different plane" isn't how Avatar is set up either. In Avatar there is only one other plane of existence, The Spirit World. The different bending techniques were taught to people by various creautures (generally Lion Turtles it seems) and the people were divided by their abilities not because of some cosmological reason, but because of war and conflict.

A "Chaos" cosmology would actually work better as the truth of the Avatar Universe, because the main goal of the show is bringing people together as one. A version of the cosmology where the forces of nature are divided and not in harmony would be against the very premise they are working towards.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm pretty sure it was rated R for language and nudity, rather than any discussion of sexual assault.

If language and nudity are worth an R rating, wouldn't sexual assault also be worth an R rating? I've certainly never seen it in a PG-13 context.