I thought that the primary purpose of Planescape was to have philosophers with clubs punching each other in a planar city.
I thought it's purpose was to make everyone speak with a cockney accent
I thought that the primary purpose of Planescape was to have philosophers with clubs punching each other in a planar city.
Or at least where the adventures all happen.That was the point of Sigil. But Planescape always had this tension between 'this a wildly expansive setting that covers every bizarre corner of the multiverse and every other setting we've ever written!' and 'here's a city at the centre of everything where everything important happens so you end up staying here most of the time anyway'.
It is. There was an advanced earth bender in Korea who manipulated magma.
OK, here's the thing.I do not believe anyone is arguing for the inclusion of SA, HOWEVER it is not off the table.
Now before you rush off and say AnotherGuy is promoting SA - that is NOT what I'm doing. Let me explain - I just had a quick look at part of my DVD shelf and I saw the movie Devil's Advocate (spoilers to follow)
In one particular scene Charlize Theron's character reveals to her husband, played by Keanu Reeves, that she was raped by Al Pacino's character (Reeve's boss who is also Lucifer). Keanu Reeve's believes she is suffering a nervous breakdown as he informs her that Al Pacino was in court with him all day long.
This is a scene about SA, and we are dealing with Lucifer who reveals throughout the show that his powers do bleed into the supernatural so there is a strong possibility that Charlize's character was indeed a victim of SA.
If you are militant a scene/story similar to this could never be used and that might be fine for your table, some tables though have a higher tolerance and could include a scene such as this which backgrounds the darkness but illuminates the power of the BBEG.
Personally, I do not think it is valuable to be discussing SA in D&D, and certainly not here - not among enthusiasts who are here to share experiences/knowledge, homebrew rules and upcoming material. I would think, we know better. So, I think its best we do not accuse fellow posters of arguing for the inclusion of the vilest material.
OK, here's the thing.
In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.
But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."
If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.
I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.
Bold emphasis mine. No, that is certainly not how I was imagining it.OK, here's the thing.
In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.
We are on the same page. Like I said earlier I'm pretty sure all if not the overwhelming majority of people that spend their time conversing with other hobbyists about homebrew rules, solutions and the latest stuff coming out know better than to torture or SA their players' characters.But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."
If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.
Yes there are stories for yesteryear, especially when it was a different time, different demographic within the hobby, mono-culture AND level of maturity. I do not find it helpful to bring up bad instances then and say they exist now. I was a different DM 30, 25, 20, even 15 years ago.I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.
It's OK. I probably will forget should I ever get around to watching it.Bold emphasis mine. No, that is certainly not how I was imagining it.
The PCs would be doing the investigating to catch the BBEG. Charlize would most definitely be an NPC.
Hmmm, I'm also kinda bummed because I consider that a real good movie and its partly spoiled for you.
I do recommend you watch it when possible.
You would be surprised that the number of people who bring something edgy and repugnant right up to the table and plop it down in the middle like a dead mouse, then look around expecting to be applauded for their bravery and creativity.We are on the same page. Like I said earlier I'm pretty sure all if not the overwhelming majority of people that spend their time conversing with other hobbyists about homebrew rules, solutions and the latest stuff coming out know better than to torture or SA their players' characters.
Korra. Darn that autocorrect!Korea? That's not a nation in the Avatar fiction.
And the canonical character most folks will remember who does lava/magma bending is Bolin, from Legends of Korra. A couple of past Avatars are said to have used the technique, and there's an antagonist in Legends of Korra as well.
Ok. I was talking about backstory, and the concept that such things exist in the setting, without needing to show them in game.OK, here's the thing.
In the scene you are talking about, if it were a game, Charlize Theron would presumably be a PC (I haven't watched the movie); therefore, she chose to have that as part of her backstory. I've played a character who'd been sexually abused as part of her background that I had written for her.
But most of the time, when people are talking about including sexual assault in a game, they are not talking about backstory stuff. They are talking about an NPC, DMPC, or a PC sexually assaulting a another PC or NPC, in-game, because reasons. Reasons including (but not limited to) as "it's a realistic/dark setting" or "it's what the character would do."
If in the scene you talked about, the GM had decided to have that event occur in the game--especially without the PC's agreement--that would be not cool. That would be pretty vile.
I've had a mild version of that happen to one of my characters, ages and ages ago (a Star Wars game; one PC decided to put a camera in my PC's shower), and let me tell you, it is not cool. It wasn't agreed upon OOC, it's not acceptable. So here is an enthusiast who is sharing an experience with you.
Well do I remember a guy who played at a table of Living Greyhawk I ran in NYC. Nobody knew this guy, he was just J. Random Gamer off the street; he had a little bit of a foreign accent, so maybe he was a visitor to the City and decided to get a game in before flying back home. Anyway, the group deals with the bad guy in the module, and this guy decides to have his spellcaster cast summon monster to get a bunch of azers (sort of like fire dwarves) to do unspeakable things to the bodies. After the fight. I would like to say I stopped him on moral grounds, but at the time I was myself a stranger to everyone there, so I just stopped him by referring to the rules of the spell, which pretty much prevented him from being able to do what he wanted.You would be surprised that the number of people who bring something edgy and repugnant right up to the table and plop it down in the middle like a dead mouse, then look around expecting to be applauded for their bravery and creativity.
"We killed the bad guys. Let me tell you what I do to the bodies!"
"Korean is the most perfect creature ever to sanctify the earth with the imprint of its foot." -- Chiun, fleshbender (probably)Korea? That's not a nation in the Avatar fiction.
And the canonical character most folks will remember who does lava/magma bending is Bolin, from Legends of Korra. A couple of past Avatars are said to have used the technique, and there's an antagonist in Legends of Korra as well.
I do not believe anyone is arguing for the inclusion of SA, HOWEVER it is not off the table.
Now before you rush off and say AnotherGuy is promoting SA - that is NOT what I'm doing. Let me explain - I just had a quick look at part of my DVD shelf and I saw the movie Devil's Advocate (spoilers to follow)
In one particular scene Charlize Theron's character reveals to her husband, played by Keanu Reeves, that she was raped by Al Pacino's character (Reeve's boss who is also Lucifer). Keanu Reeve's believes she is suffering a nervous breakdown as he informs her that Al Pacino was in court with him all day long.
This is a scene about SA, and we are dealing with Lucifer who reveals throughout the show that his powers do bleed into the supernatural so there is a strong possibility that Charlize's character was indeed a victim of SA.
If you are militant a scene/story similar to this could never be used and that might be fine for your table, some tables though have a higher tolerance and could include a scene such as this which backgrounds the darkness but illuminates the power of the BBEG.
Personally, I do not think it is valuable to be discussing SA in D&D, and certainly not here - not among enthusiasts who are here to share experiences/knowledge, homebrew rules and upcoming material. I would think, we know better. So, I think its best we do not accuse fellow posters of arguing for the inclusion of the vilest material.
I'm pretty sure it was rated R for language and nudity, rather than any discussion of sexual assault.Here is another thing to consider. Take that Movie, The Devil's Advocate, off your shelf and look at the rating. Notice it is rated R? Now, tell me, is DnD official material rated R? Do we have "for adults only" sections of official material? No, we do not. DnD, if it could be rated, would be rated PG-13.
It doesn't matter if you could tell the difference or not. In the games where they were ignored, those planes still existed. In the ones where they were removed, they did not exist.
Your argument is basically that if I don't use or bring up orcs in one Forgotten Realms campaign, orcs suddenly do not exist in that world for that campaign, but do exist in the Forgotten Realms in all the others where I do use them.
Show me where I've used the 2e game alter how the 5e game works? The 2e version of the Rock of Bral adds to the incredibly weak 5e version. It doesn't replace it the way you are trying to do.
You mean when I responded to @Remathilis and then you quoted me responding to him which started this discussion? The same post where you asked me about why the positive and negative planes should be there?
Here's your post in case you want to look at it. WotC - WotC needs an Elon Musk
Um. That's the 5e cosmology as quoted from the DMG. That's exactly how it works by default. There is no Great Wheel in fact. It's just an imaginary construct some settings use to explain the planes.
And it does address what you said. You incorrectly claimed Bytopia was tied to the Great Wheel. It isn't because there is no true Great Wheel. Then you said that Bytopia wasn't a part of every cosmology. In 5e it is, even Eberron which is mostly closed off from it. 5e tied Eberron to the greater multiverse, thereby adding in Bytopia to that setting in a tenuous manner.
I reject your False Dichotomy and your attempt to have me say or imply something I didn't say or imply. Sexual assault wasn't a part of my quote or yours, since the post you quoted was talking only about normal violence and then I responded to you on that normal violence. Perhaps you didn't read the original quote to understand only read to respond, which is a recurring problem you seem to have. When you do that you get things grossly wrong, like you just did with me here.
So yes, you did post something that was waaaaaay out in left field. Don't do that.
Sure, if the default is that important to you, rather than providing options so more player's interest are included.
Sexual assault and brutal torture can inform a PC or NPC's backstory, however, even if you understandably don't want them on camera in the game. Tanis Half-Elven, for example, is the product of rape. Lots of movies and TV shows use these subjects that way.
Well, if you are looking for exactly true . . .
In the 1e Manual of the Planes they call out Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi as inhabitants of the energy planes and Trillochs as immigrants to the negative material plane.
Apparently there are places and structures in the 1e negative material plane. "The Negative Material plane is eternally dark, its structures and towers made up of physical, solid blackness."
They also talk about a couple of things on the energy plane border areas as places to go.
"Towers: Ringing the Positive Material plane is a scattered group of great towers, massive structures of the heaviest elemental material available for that quasi-plane (blue flame, lead, solidified clouds, or ice). These towers extend into the Positive Material plane on thin peninsulas of quasi-elemental material. Some of these peninsulas so thin that a halfling could touch the Positive Energy plane on both sides. These towers are normally abandoned, but occasionally powerful creatures dwell within—high-level wizards, druids researching the nature of the Positive Material plane, or exiled Powers from the lower outer planes. The origin of these towers is as yet unknown, but it is noted that the intrusions of the Positive Material plane do not overcome the elemental peninsulas or the area around them."
"Citadels: Travelers in the planes near the Negative Material plane often report lights and activities within that plane very close to the quasi-elemental shores. These mysterious citadels are apparently domed and complete fortresses or cities. They are tied to the quasi-plane by a thin rope of elemental material, so as to prevent their being lost in the negative energies beyond. The inhabitants of these citadels vary according to the tale: great monsters, quasi-elementals on the verge of becoming archomentals, fell necromancers, liches, and lords of the undead further strengthening the ties between such creatures and the Negative Material plane. In truth, these citadels must be discovered by the travelers and are left as special encounters for the DM."
In the 3e Manual of the Planes for the positive energy plane they call out ravids and xag-ya. "Some outsiders make the Positive Energy Plane their home. The best-known of these are the ravids, which tend to dwell in the quieter areas of the plane, but the energon known as the xag-ya is also common, even in the deepest heart of the plane."
So 3.5 Eberron's Irian adds Lumi and Lantern Archons? I have never really delved into a lot of the specifics of the Eberron planar cosmology beyond knowing there are 12+1 planes and they move in and out of conjunctions.
The 3e MotP also talks about some features of the positive material plane
"Edge Zones
The edge zones are a reference for quiet areas on the plane, like islands or shores on the seething hotbed of energy. These regions have the minor positive-dominant trait and are dotted with bits of flotsam from other
planes, including floating citadels, bits of tattered astral haze, and shards of other planes. The more solid pieces of the edge zones are used as outposts by creatures powerful enough to weather the changing nature of the plane itself. Such strongholds must be well protected, because tides of more intense positive energy could sweep over the edge zone at any time.
The Hospice
A particular location within an edge zone, the Hospice is a floating citadel with a large outcropping of rock raised as a shield against the more lethal energies of the plane. The Hospice and the area within 300 feet of it have the minor positive-dominant trait, though the structure sometimes has to relocate in order for this phenomenon to be maintained.
The Hospice is home to a small community of holy knights and healers dedicated to the healing arts. The order is legendary for taking badly wounded individuals and restoring them to health, and the members know spells and procedures that allow the healing of otherwise incurable ailments. Their ability to treat diseases on this plane is limited by the nature of the plane itself, but even then the Hospice community may know of effective treatments that do not involve positive energy.
The Hospice is protected by a number of golems in addition to its humanoid staff. Good-aligned individuals from a dozen planes staff the Hospice. While they would not turn away an evil individual, they do keep less trustworthy patients in locked wards.
Imprisoning Cells
Particularly powerful individuals can be effectively imprisoned by dumping their physical forms or their spirit-bonded souls into a prison protected from positive energy and sent onto the Positive Energy Plane. While not a long-term solution (such prisons are invariably opened by some curious traveler or swept through a vortex onto another plane), these imprisoning cells keep items and individuals away from the rest of the planes for decades or even generations."
3e has some features and adventuring hooks for the negative plane as well:
"Doldrums
Certain regions on the Negative Energy Plane are less deadly than others, reducing the negative-dominant trait from major to minor or even removing it entirely. These areas, called the doldrums, are relatively static on the plane, so towers, cities, and other structures can be built at their locations.
The perils of such places are twofold. The most obvious threat is the hostile life (and unlife) in the area. A second threat is that the borders of a doldrums area may fail and the deadly tides of negative energy once again wash over the region. Necromancers in particular favor the doldrums for their lairs.
Death Heart
The best-known location within one of the major doldrums, Death Heart is an entire spired city constructed within a hollow metal sphere one mile in diameter that drifted in from some long-dead alternate Material Plane. While the exterior of the sphere has a minor negative-dominant trait, its interior is free of the baneful negative energy of the plane. That protection failed to save the city’s inhabitants.
The city was founded as an experimental utopian community. Originally called the Heart of the Void, it was designed by its mysterious masters to be a place untainted by other beings and schools of thought. In reality, it was quickly overrun by the undead, who feasted on the flesh and souls of the students within. Now its towers and plazas are empty except for the undead invaders. Here may be found all varieties of undead, including not only energy-draining creatures such as wraiths, wights, and spectres, but more mundane skeletons, zombies, and mummies. Several liches and powerful vampires claim this sphere as their home.
Rumors carried by the mercanes state that usually the various evil factions within the Heart of the Void are engaged in perpetual war with one another. But now a particularly dangerous individual, a vampiric minotaur, has brokered peace among the factions and has encouraged further research into the nature of the city and the plane itself. The mercanes believe that the vampiric minotaur’s eventual goal is to steer the city to another plane and use his undead minions to wreak havoc there.
Castles Perilous
Given the large number of undead creatures in residence on the Negative Energy Plane, there is less tendency to use the Negative Energy Plane as a repository for evil prisoners and dangerous items. However, good-aligned prisoners and benevolent items are often imprisoned here, usually in towers of pitted iron with sealed gates. These prisons are well trapped and often heavily guarded.
Some hold celestials or good-aligned artifacts not easily destroyed, while others contain paladins in stasis and other items and individuals baneful to the undead. The presence of these castles perilous is often a reason that Material Plane travelers (especially those of good alignment) come to this plane."
Irian and Mabar and the Shadowfell and such seem like definite attempts to make these types of cosmological features more suitable for adventures than the great wheel energy plane set up, but the older Manual of the Planes great wheel in-depth descriptions also have features for them and just like the later Mabar, the borders are more suitable than deep into the plane. So it is more like a step further on the same continuum than a quantum jump of nothing to something. 1e PH and DMG and MM mention energy material planes and there is some discussion of their relationship to spells and some monsters, but then the Manual of Planes fleshes them out a bit with some features to explore or use as planar narrative elements.
I believe magma bending is under Earth, not fire.
The specific cosmological set up.
Four elements is one.
Five elements with metal and wood is another.
Four elements plus void is another.
Yin Yang.
Dry versus Moist, Hot versus Cold.
Elemental Chaos versus Astral Sea is a big cosmological divide for the 4e World Axis, a bit similar in some big ways to the Inner versus outer planes of the Great Wheel.
I am not saying good or bad, I am saying different cosmological import. Mixed elementals instead of themed elementals was a 4e creation that supported the Elemental Chaos aspect of 4e cosmology. Going with just the four elements for elementals, or the themed planar elementals or a periodic chart elementals supports and reinforces different cosmological setups. Not better or worse, different.
No but the cosmological importance of fire is different if it is just one part of elemental nature versus a cosmological element in itself.
That seems an incorrect overextension of the argument about the cosmological import to "must be" and "only."
In a cosmology of water as fundamental, you fit acid into the cosmological framework of water. In a modern scientific cosmological framework you fit acid into a PH balance aspect of fundamental aspects of the universe and generally do not put the four elements as the four fundamental aspects of the universe.
Elemental Chaos can be Chaos of the four elements chaotically mixing in irregular amounts or not be bound by the four elements framework at all.
Elemental Chaos can work for an Avatar cosmology, but how much narrative power the cosmology will have can vary by how it ties to the other elements or does not. A non-four elements elemental chaos can logically work with the airbender world setup, but it does not track as well as a four elements cosmology would and would have different narrative impacts the more it came in and flavored the world.
I'm pretty sure it was rated R for language and nudity, rather than any discussion of sexual assault.