WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chaosmancer

Legend
You said they weren't explicitly removed. You said they just ignored them and they never came up. Which is it?

Both.

Some games just ignored them, because they just said "OKay guys, you start in Baldur's Gate and you are with a caravan going north" Other games went "okay, this is the setting we are using" and that setting cosmology had explicitly removed the negative energy plane. And the end result was.... identical. Could tell the difference except that the one in Baldur's Gate said "Baldur's Gate".

So this is 5e, not 4e. In 5e the energy planes are back as default, so they exist in all 5e settings by default, including Nerath if you are running it with 5e.

Interesting claim. You can use the 2e version of things, and claim that is fine. But I can't use the 4e version of things? Or the versions that don't have the NEgative Energy Plane? Unless the DM or the writers spend as much time writing explicitly "this thing doesn't exist" which they spent telling me it does exist. I mean, it is literally a line in the DMG. But that gets to override everything, meanwhile the Plane of Salt was also removed in 4e, but even though it was never mentioned in the DMG, I have to accept that it exists too?

By default that is true. If you explicitly remove the positive and negative planes, you can leave undead and they work differently somehow.

I haven't backtracked at all. I'm talking defaults. By default all settings in 5e work how I described. You have to homebrew those planes out to make it different.

So, I'm talking about removing things, and you felt the need to sweep in and tell me how the things I'm removing are supposed to work? When my entire point was that they aren't needed for those things to work?

They exist in all cosmologies in 5e. 5e has unified things, including Eberron to connect all settings to the planes.

And yet, I have 5e books for Eberron that never mention these things. I could take my Eberron 5e books and run without those things ever being true. And Eberron works far better without those useless connections.

So you do know that there's not really a wheel, right? It's just a description some old dudes came up with that was as good as any.

5e DMG page 43

"Once you've decided on the planes you want to use in your campaign, putting them into a coherent cosmology is an optional step. Since the primary way of traveling from plane to plane, even using the Transitive Planes, is through magical portals that link planes together, the exact relationship of different planes to one another is largely a theoretical concern. No being in the multiverse can look down and see the planes in their arrangement the same way as we look at a diagram in a book. No mortal can verify whether Mount Celestia is sandwiched between Bytopia and Arcadia, but it's a convenient theoretical construct based on the philosophical shading among the three planes and the relative importance they give to law and good.

Sages have constructed a few such theoretical models to make sense of the jumble of planes, particularly the Outer Planes. The three most common are the Great Wheel, the World Tree, and the World Axis, but you can create or adapt whatever model works best for the planes you want to use in your game."

Pick a cosmology and the positive and negative planes are there unless you homebrew them out.

No, that isn't how it works. Heck, that doesn't even address the point I was saying. Do you understand the point I was making about Bytopia? Because your answer is nonsensical compared to my question.

ROFL Wow. Went waaaaay out into left field with that question. I'm not going to bother to answer that question as it doesn't warrant one.

No, I didn't go out into left field. You took my response to why sexual assault in the game can't be compared to violence in the game, then asked f I limited violence to only the proper usages of violence. A question which implies one of two possible routes.

1) Since I allow violence that is not "properly used" in the game, then I should allow "improperly used" sexual assault in the game. Which is a disgusting angle to take, because it implies there is a proper use for sexual assault.

2) You allow one bad thing in the game, therefore you should allow this other bad thing in the game. Which is nonsense, and so I demonstrated that with an example. You allow violence in your game, but would you allow brutal and pointless sadistic torture in your game? It is violence after all, and you allow one, so why not the other?

Because there are obvious differences. To the point where you can't even answer the question, because you find it so ridiculous. Yet, you do want to push back on my answer for why sexual assault shouldn't be in the game.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Chaosmancer

Legend
Eberron has the planes of Irian and Mabar, which are the setting's equivalent of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. They are the sources of positive and negative energy, respectively, and are the foundation upon which elven necromantic practices are built.

Except that isn't true exactly.

Yes, Irian is a plane of positive energy but also order, hope and light. But what happens if you go there? There are things to do and people to meet. There are Lantern Archons, Ravid, Lumi, and Xag-ya living there. You can go to the Amaranthine City in the Zone and speak to sages, healers, and celestial beings, or heal a terrible wound in the Waters of Life. It is a place people go to, come from, and can exist in.

The Positive Energy plane? It is a mass of energy that explodes you if you are in it for more than a few minutes. It has no features, no locations, no inhabitants.

These are very different concepts.

And yes, if memory serves me going deep enough into Mabar can kill someone, but it is the realm of death and decay. That is like saying walking to close to a nuclear reactor can kill you. However, on the edges of Mabar? Still inhabitants like Death Giants, Gloom Golems, yugoloths, ect. Still locations to visit. It can kill you if you aren't careful and smart, but it isn't the "within 1 minute of arrival, you are dead" that we see from the Negative Energy plane. And, again, it isn't JUST negative energy, but also gloom, darkness, decay, entropy.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Max was hinting that there were other reasons violence may exist within the game besides the ones you listed.
Bullying may exist - for example - a town guardsman could be flexing their authority on some common folk, exerting some level of violence, and the PCs are there to see it. The DM could be using that scene as colour to reflect how in this area the authority is oppressive.
Common folk could be cartered off to be questioned (read aggressively questioned) because the authority is looking to stamp out dissent. Again could be used as colour. There is a lot more.

Your specific instances for permitting violence in D&D seemed too limiting, especially given the vast breadth of stories we DO already tell, Max rightly so, was questioning that.

So what are the "more" and "Color" that we should accept from allowing Sexual Assault?

Because, the point I was making wasn't "these are the only types of violence allowed" but that violence is different from sexual assault, because violence can have positive uses. It is a tool that can be used for good or ill, which means that it can be contextualized. So, for my reasoning on why sexual assault is treated differently from violence to be wrong, you don't need to show that there are negative ways to use violence, that's not in question. What you would need to do is show that their are positive ways to use sexual assault. And you can't. There isn't any. Just like brutal and pointless torture whose only point is to cause pain, there is no good that can ever come from Sexual Assault.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Some games just ignored them, because they just said "OKay guys, you start in Baldur's Gate and you are with a caravan going north" Other games went "okay, this is the setting we are using" and that setting cosmology had explicitly removed the negative energy plane. And the end result was.... identical. Could tell the difference except that the one in Baldur's Gate said "Baldur's Gate".
It doesn't matter if you could tell the difference or not. In the games where they were ignored, those planes still existed. In the ones where they were removed, they did not exist.

Your argument is basically that if I don't use or bring up orcs in one Forgotten Realms campaign, orcs suddenly do not exist in that world for that campaign, but do exist in the Forgotten Realms in all the others where I do use them.
Interesting claim. You can use the 2e version of things, and claim that is fine. But I can't use the 4e version of things? Or the versions that don't have the NEgative Energy Plane? Unless the DM or the writers spend as much time writing explicitly "this thing doesn't exist" which they spent telling me it does exist. I mean, it is literally a line in the DMG. But that gets to override everything, meanwhile the Plane of Salt was also removed in 4e, but even though it was never mentioned in the DMG, I have to accept that it exists too?
Show me where I've used the 2e game alter how the 5e game works? The 2e version of the Rock of Bral adds to the incredibly weak 5e version. It doesn't replace it the way you are trying to do.
So, I'm talking about removing things, and you felt the need to sweep in and tell me how the things I'm removing are supposed to work? When my entire point was that they aren't needed for those things to work?
You mean when I responded to @Remathilis and then you quoted me responding to him which started this discussion? The same post where you asked me about why the positive and negative planes should be there?

Here's your post in case you want to look at it. WotC - WotC needs an Elon Musk

And yet, I have 5e books for Eberron that never mention these things. I could take my Eberron 5e books and run without those things ever being true. And Eberron works far better without those useless connections.
I've already said you can homebrew them out if you want. I'm not sure what more you need. 🤷‍♂️
No, that isn't how it works. Heck, that doesn't even address the point I was saying. Do you understand the point I was making about Bytopia? Because your answer is nonsensical compared to my question.
Um. That's the 5e cosmology as quoted from the DMG. That's exactly how it works by default. There is no Great Wheel in fact. It's just an imaginary construct some settings use to explain the planes.

And it does address what you said. You incorrectly claimed Bytopia was tied to the Great Wheel. It isn't because there is no true Great Wheel. Then you said that Bytopia wasn't a part of every cosmology. In 5e it is, even Eberron which is mostly closed off from it. 5e tied Eberron to the greater multiverse, thereby adding in Bytopia to that setting in a tenuous manner.
No, I didn't go out into left field. You took my response to why sexual assault in the game can't be compared to violence in the game, then asked f I limited violence to only the proper usages of violence. A question which implies one of two possible routes.

1) Since I allow violence that is not "properly used" in the game, then I should allow "improperly used" sexual assault in the game. Which is a disgusting angle to take, because it implies there is a proper use for sexual assault.

2) You allow one bad thing in the game, therefore you should allow this other bad thing in the game. Which is nonsense, and so I demonstrated that with an example. You allow violence in your game, but would you allow brutal and pointless sadistic torture in your game? It is violence after all, and you allow one, so why not the other?
I reject your False Dichotomy and your attempt to have me say or imply something I didn't say or imply. Sexual assault wasn't a part of my quote or yours, since the post you quoted was talking only about normal violence and then I responded to you on that normal violence. Perhaps you didn't read the original quote to understand only read to respond, which is a recurring problem you seem to have. When you do that you get things grossly wrong, like you just did with me here.

So yes, you did post something that was waaaaaay out in left field. Don't do that.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
A question you should certainly reflect on..


I do not "want" to do that; I really wish it was unnecessary. But people who think that their personal taste is superior to other peoples', and that those with inferior taste are to be bludgeoned into submission, are depressingly common.


Speaking of "strange takes"; yes I do not spend a lot of time arguing with people I agree with, what a revelation! You really got me there! And again, asking you not to tell people their preferences is wrong and bad is not "end[ing] the discussion".

Except... I've never said they are wrong for what they like. I've pushed back on their reasoning sure, but I've never said their preferences are wrong.

And, yes, it does seem to be that the goal is to end the conversation. Because the conversation seems to be about two things to me. 1) Why can't we move these locations to places they will be more utilized. Answer so far "because I like the way it is, and I don't want to change." 2) Why can't something that seems more streamlined and designed more like a real cosmology be the default, intstead of the Great Wheel?" Answer so far being.... "because I like the way it is, and I don't want to change."

So, if I just accept that people have preferences and that is that.... then we keep their version of things because no discussion can be had about changing it. Because it is their preference and I am not allowed to challenge that status quo without being accused of attempting to bludgeon people into submission towards my clearly superior personal taste. Something I.... never claimed.

Strangely, while the people defending the status quo are more than willing to tell me I can just change things to match what I want for me and that is fine, if I talk about changing the default so that they would have to change things to match what they want, I am attacking their preferences and projecting that I believe my taste is superior, and I should be ashamed, because it is just personal taste and no one's personal taste is superior.

And this isn't just this thread. It is literally EVERY discussion on changing things in DnD. Every time we talk about changing things, in any way, shape, form, or context, the people who don't want change hide behind making it out that we are attacking their preferences, and preferences aren't objective, so you can't argue against them, you just have to accept the status quo. Or change it only for yourself and nothing else, so they keep the status quo the same.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Sure, you can feel that way.

Do you mind if I feel like advocating for the World Axis to be the default is okay? Is that fine with you that I advocate for that to be the model primarily used in the DMG and the adventures, rather than the Great Wheel?
Sure, if the default is that important to you, rather than providing options so more player's interest are included. It doesn't matter anymore. WotC has stopped making the game I want, and they're clearly not going to.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
So what are the "more" and "Color" that we should accept from allowing Sexual Assault?

Because, the point I was making wasn't "these are the only types of violence allowed" but that violence is different from sexual assault, because violence can have positive uses. It is a tool that can be used for good or ill, which means that it can be contextualized. So, for my reasoning on why sexual assault is treated differently from violence to be wrong, you don't need to show that there are negative ways to use violence, that's not in question. What you would need to do is show that their are positive ways to use sexual assault. And you can't. There isn't any. Just like brutal and pointless torture whose only point is to cause pain, there is no good that can ever come from Sexual Assault.
Sexual assault and brutal torture can inform a PC or NPC's backstory, however, even if you understandably don't want them on camera in the game. Tanis Half-Elven, for example, is the product of rape. Lots of movies and TV shows use these subjects that way.
 

Voadam

Legend
Except that isn't true exactly.

Yes, Irian is a plane of positive energy but also order, hope and light. But what happens if you go there? There are things to do and people to meet. There are Lantern Archons, Ravid, Lumi, and Xag-ya living there. You can go to the Amaranthine City in the Zone and speak to sages, healers, and celestial beings, or heal a terrible wound in the Waters of Life. It is a place people go to, come from, and can exist in.

The Positive Energy plane? It is a mass of energy that explodes you if you are in it for more than a few minutes. It has no features, no locations, no inhabitants.
Well, if you are looking for exactly true . . . :)

In the 1e Manual of the Planes they call out Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi as inhabitants of the energy planes and Trillochs as immigrants to the negative material plane.

Apparently there are places and structures in the 1e negative material plane. "The Negative Material plane is eternally dark, its structures and towers made up of physical, solid blackness."

They also talk about a couple of things on the energy plane border areas as places to go.

"Towers: Ringing the Positive Material plane is a scattered group of great towers, massive structures of the heaviest elemental material available for that quasi-plane (blue flame, lead, solidified clouds, or ice). These towers extend into the Positive Material plane on thin peninsulas of quasi-elemental material. Some of these peninsulas so thin that a halfling could touch the Positive Energy plane on both sides. These towers are normally abandoned, but occasionally powerful creatures dwell within—high-level wizards, druids researching the nature of the Positive Material plane, or exiled Powers from the lower outer planes. The origin of these towers is as yet unknown, but it is noted that the intrusions of the Positive Material plane do not overcome the elemental peninsulas or the area around them."

"Citadels: Travelers in the planes near the Negative Material plane often report lights and activities within that plane very close to the quasi-elemental shores. These mysterious citadels are apparently domed and complete fortresses or cities. They are tied to the quasi-plane by a thin rope of elemental material, so as to prevent their being lost in the negative energies beyond. The inhabitants of these citadels vary according to the tale: great monsters, quasi-elementals on the verge of becoming archomentals, fell necromancers, liches, and lords of the undead further strengthening the ties between such creatures and the Negative Material plane. In truth, these citadels must be discovered by the travelers and are left as special encounters for the DM."

In the 3e Manual of the Planes for the positive energy plane they call out ravids and xag-ya. "Some outsiders make the Positive Energy Plane their home. The best-known of these are the ravids, which tend to dwell in the quieter areas of the plane, but the energon known as the xag-ya is also common, even in the deepest heart of the plane."

So 3.5 Eberron's Irian adds Lumi and Lantern Archons? I have never really delved into a lot of the specifics of the Eberron planar cosmology beyond knowing there are 12+1 planes and they move in and out of conjunctions.

The 3e MotP also talks about some features of the positive material plane

"Edge Zones
The edge zones are a reference for quiet areas on the plane, like islands or shores on the seething hotbed of energy. These regions have the minor positive-dominant trait and are dotted with bits of flotsam from other
planes, including floating citadels, bits of tattered astral haze, and shards of other planes. The more solid pieces of the edge zones are used as outposts by creatures powerful enough to weather the changing nature of the plane itself. Such strongholds must be well protected, because tides of more intense positive energy could sweep over the edge zone at any time.
The Hospice
A particular location within an edge zone, the Hospice is a floating citadel with a large outcropping of rock raised as a shield against the more lethal energies of the plane. The Hospice and the area within 300 feet of it have the minor positive-dominant trait, though the structure sometimes has to relocate in order for this phenomenon to be maintained.
The Hospice is home to a small community of holy knights and healers dedicated to the healing arts. The order is legendary for taking badly wounded individuals and restoring them to health, and the members know spells and procedures that allow the healing of otherwise incurable ailments. Their ability to treat diseases on this plane is limited by the nature of the plane itself, but even then the Hospice community may know of effective treatments that do not involve positive energy.
The Hospice is protected by a number of golems in addition to its humanoid staff. Good-aligned individuals from a dozen planes staff the Hospice. While they would not turn away an evil individual, they do keep less trustworthy patients in locked wards.
Imprisoning Cells
Particularly powerful individuals can be effectively imprisoned by dumping their physical forms or their spirit-bonded souls into a prison protected from positive energy and sent onto the Positive Energy Plane. While not a long-term solution (such prisons are invariably opened by some curious traveler or swept through a vortex onto another plane), these imprisoning cells keep items and individuals away from the rest of the planes for decades or even generations."

3e has some features and adventuring hooks for the negative plane as well:

"Doldrums
Certain regions on the Negative Energy Plane are less deadly than others, reducing the negative-dominant trait from major to minor or even removing it entirely. These areas, called the doldrums, are relatively static on the plane, so towers, cities, and other structures can be built at their locations.
The perils of such places are twofold. The most obvious threat is the hostile life (and unlife) in the area. A second threat is that the borders of a doldrums area may fail and the deadly tides of negative energy once again wash over the region. Necromancers in particular favor the doldrums for their lairs.
Death Heart
The best-known location within one of the major doldrums, Death Heart is an entire spired city constructed within a hollow metal sphere one mile in diameter that drifted in from some long-dead alternate Material Plane. While the exterior of the sphere has a minor negative-dominant trait, its interior is free of the baneful negative energy of the plane. That protection failed to save the city’s inhabitants.
The city was founded as an experimental utopian community. Originally called the Heart of the Void, it was designed by its mysterious masters to be a place untainted by other beings and schools of thought. In reality, it was quickly overrun by the undead, who feasted on the flesh and souls of the students within. Now its towers and plazas are empty except for the undead invaders. Here may be found all varieties of undead, including not only energy-draining creatures such as wraiths, wights, and spectres, but more mundane skeletons, zombies, and mummies. Several liches and powerful vampires claim this sphere as their home.
Rumors carried by the mercanes state that usually the various evil factions within the Heart of the Void are engaged in perpetual war with one another. But now a particularly dangerous individual, a vampiric minotaur, has brokered peace among the factions and has encouraged further research into the nature of the city and the plane itself. The mercanes believe that the vampiric minotaur’s eventual goal is to steer the city to another plane and use his undead minions to wreak havoc there.
Castles Perilous
Given the large number of undead creatures in residence on the Negative Energy Plane, there is less tendency to use the Negative Energy Plane as a repository for evil prisoners and dangerous items. However, good-aligned prisoners and benevolent items are often imprisoned here, usually in towers of pitted iron with sealed gates. These prisons are well trapped and often heavily guarded.
Some hold celestials or good-aligned artifacts not easily destroyed, while others contain paladins in stasis and other items and individuals baneful to the undead. The presence of these castles perilous is often a reason that Material Plane travelers (especially those of good alignment) come to this plane."

These are very different concepts.

And yes, if memory serves me going deep enough into Mabar can kill someone, but it is the realm of death and decay. That is like saying walking to close to a nuclear reactor can kill you. However, on the edges of Mabar? Still inhabitants like Death Giants, Gloom Golems, yugoloths, ect. Still locations to visit. It can kill you if you aren't careful and smart, but it isn't the "within 1 minute of arrival, you are dead" that we see from the Negative Energy plane. And, again, it isn't JUST negative energy, but also gloom, darkness, decay, entropy.
Irian and Mabar and the Shadowfell and such seem like definite attempts to make these types of cosmological features more suitable for adventures than the great wheel energy plane set up, but the older Manual of the Planes great wheel in-depth descriptions also have features for them and just like the later Mabar, the borders are more suitable than deep into the plane. So it is more like a step further on the same continuum than a quantum jump of nothing to something. 1e PH and DMG and MM mention energy material planes and there is some discussion of their relationship to spells and some monsters, but then the Manual of Planes fleshes them out a bit with some features to explore or use as planar narrative elements.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Depending on the cosmology, it could be, but under most cosmologies no. They are generally just things in the world.

So what makes something "Fundamental to the world"? Most creatures don't need fire, but they do need acid.

There are lots of spells and creatures that are not tied into big cosmological themes. I do not expect everything in D&D to be. But I would generally expect some big cosmological tie ins to support the cosmological themes.

For instance 4e has the elemental chaos and they have a lot of mixed element elementals. Dwarves and Giants have a lot of narrative elements tying their history to the primordials and the Elemental Chaos.

Okay. But just because mixed elementals exist (which I don't know why them existing is bad) doesn't mean pure elementals don't exist. Like, the point that was made is that Fire can't be conceptually and spiritually important if it is in the elemental Chaos, but the elemental chaos isn't a slurry. It is chunks. And Fire doesn't have to have an entire plane of existence to be philosophically interesting or discussed.

But the point seemed to be that since fire spells and fire philosophy exists, there must be a plane of only fire... which doesn't track. Just because someone has a philosophy doesn't mean you need an entire plane of existence embodying that philosophy.

Yes, it can just be a coincidence that lots of things align on multiple axes with classic greek elements and we don't really see bending that does not fit the elemental paradigm, but such a cosmology would have a different narrative impact than tying those elements into a specific elemental cosmology for the setting. The four element division is a big deal in setting IIRC from the original series intros, though it has been a number of years. If you had say acid benders it would feel a bit jarring, particularly with no narrative tie in to the four elements.

You could make elemental acid work with different paradigms, maybe acid is the conjunction of earth and water and the negative energy material plane to represent its corrosive elemental nature instead of being one end of a PH axis for physical reality. :)

Or you can have a cosmological model that does not care, where acid, like other things is something normal you can summon or magically create. There are more fire spells and creatures, but that is not a reflection of the cosmological setup of the universe.

Avatar does have Acid Benders. They are called Water Benders. Because Acid, much like blood and plants, contains water to be bent. Just like Fire bending contains Lightning and Magma bending.

But, again, you seem to be missing the point. The complaint I was responding to was that the Elemental Chaos doesn't work, because Fire has to be a pure concept, because there are fire spells and fire elementals, and it is a fundamental part of reality. My response about acid wasn't because I don't understand how to make an elemental plane of acid, but to instead point out that acid spells and creautures that utilize acid, and even philosophical theories involving acid, do not require a pure plane of acid to exist. The complaint seems to be focused on this idea that fire is somehow more special than other things in the world, and therefore it requires a pure elemental plane. But... they are just assuming the conclusion. And if you examine it, I find that the conclusion does not follow from the evidence.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top