WoTC Rodney: Economy of actions

[DM_Blake]

So, the solution to the problem is to change the rules? And, then to change the rules so that the action becomes substantially sub-par? After all, if casting fireball doesn't draw aggro (to use the MMORPG term) but summon monster III does, well, it's not too tricky to figure out which one I'm going to cast.

In other words, if you are going to make it suicidal to cast certain spells, why not just remove those spells from play?

I'm not really changing the rules. The components are already there. I'm making it more clear to all viewers that a summon is being cast, and everyone who can see it knows who is casting it.

That's no different than fireball, except fireball is a standard action, so nobody can interrupt it unless they have held an action to shoot the mage, or happen to be within reach for an AoO (stupid mage to allow that).

The downside to summons is that it takes a full round. So every enemy on the battlefield can act on their own rounds. No AoO necessary. No held action necessary.

Sure, I ham up the cause/effect visuals. This is to discourage summoning during combat.

Summoning before combat is still an alternative, but 1 round/level means you better know you're going into combat immediately or it's wasted.

Some times, summoning in combat works. Such as when you're fighting a zombie horde, and they are far enough away that they won't get AoOs - they're not smart enough to recognize the spell, spellcaster, or effects, and they won't deliberately interrupt - though they might happen to decide the summoner is yummy and try to eat him, if there's nobody else closer or yummier.

All I'm doing with this is making it easier to spot the summoner. I'm making sure nobody thinks it's a few whispered words and a quick hand gesture, then spend 6 seconds sitting around acting innocent until your summoned critter *poofs* onto the battlefield.

 

[DM_Blake]

Where in RAW does it tell us that casting a summoning spell causes all sorts of special effects and basically places a giant neon sign above the caster saying "HEY KILL ME!"?

One thing about it, with those rules, I'd be taking silent and still spell feats ASAP.

Wouldn't help much.

Silent means you could whisper the verbal components, even if you're gagged. Still means your hand gestures are so minimal that they can easily escape notice, and you can even cast if you're bound.

However, neither metamagic feat hides the magical effects.

A silent, stilled Lightning Bolt still blasts out of your hand and strikes your target. Everyone watching knows you cast the spell, though they might be surprised since they didn't see or hear you casting it.

A silent, stilled Cone of Cold still blasts out of your hand and strikes your targets. Everyone watching knows you cast the spell, though they might be surprised since they didn't see or hear you casting it.

A silent, stilled Summon Monster still generates the effects in the target square and the wisps of summoning ectoplasm that stream out of your hand. Everyone watching knows you are casting the spell, though they might be surprised since they don't see or hear you casting it.

In other words, you can silence or still the act of casting, but you cannot silence or still the spell's effects.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm not really changing the rules. The components are already there. I'm making it more clear to all viewers that a summon is being cast, and everyone who can see it knows who is casting it.

That is a house rule. The RAW would allow a Spellcraft check to determine that it's a summoning spell; otherwise, it's just the caster performing somatic and verbal components.

I don't think most people would argue that summon monster X is broken, anyway; the issue is really over animal companions + summon nature's ally + charmed animals + wildshape, which combine to create a zoo's worth of combatants. Likewise Leadership, which has the tendency to add in too many cohorts and followers and break the power curve. Gate is of course the worst offender, since it can be used to call creatures substantially more powerful than the party fighter!

 

[Dunamin]

A silent, stilled Summon Monster still generates the effects in the target square and the wisps of summoning ectoplasm that stream out of your hand. Everyone watching knows you are casting the spell, though they might be surprised since they don't see or hear you casting it.

Wait, what?

A Summon Monster spell does not generate magic juju streaming out of your hand, at least per RAW.

 

[Dausuul]

The economy of actions is such that, as some players have more and more turns associated with their character in each round, many other players have less and less fun. Period. There is literally no way around this and if you believe you have found a way around this, I am fully glad you are not on the 4e design team, because you are wrong.

On account of this, some sort of neutering of cohorts, summons, and other means of attaining multiple actions must be put in place in the rules as written now, with this fourth edition. Why, you ask? Because 4e D&D is about fun, and though they may not do it maliciously, the Dausuuls and KarinsDads of the world will point at the rules and exclaim that they are justified in taking two to four times as many turns as everyone else at the table, and the Wormwoods, Storminators, and Saishuu_Heikis will sigh, because that's what the book says, so even though it tramples on their fun, many of them will not realize how wrong it actually is, and let it keep happening to them for another eight to ten years.

Hmm... first, I'd like to point out that I'm not in favor of people taking a pile of actions on their turn. I personally might enjoy playing a summoner or a necromancer, but you'll note that in the example of this I gave (the dread necro with a horde of undead), I was only playing that character by mutual agreement with the other players, and even then I handed out most of the undead for other people to control. A summoner with five summoned creatures, who takes five times as long to resolve his/her turn as anyone else at the table, is a Bad Thing.

That said, I think there is such a thing as overcompensating in the name of absolute fairness. A single cohort, using a specialized "cohort class," with simple maneuvers that don't take a lot of time or thought, and who acts on the master's initiative, need not be a substantial drag on play. Particularly if the cohort frequently provides a bonus instead of taking an actual action. (The power issue is another matter.) Yes, there is a very minor loss to fun for the other players; but weigh that against the many reasons why people want cohorts, most of which are valid, and I think the balance of fun is in favor of some kind of cohort system.

After some thought, I do think specialized cohort classes are an absolute necessity, though. Gameplay aside, the power differential is just too great otherwise. Extrapolating from the monster XP values we've seen, a PC-classed cohort would require a huge "level adjustment" both for the cohort and for the master. For instance, in a 10th-level party, if you wanted to have a 5th-level cohort, you'd need to give up three levels yourself in order to keep things balanced.

 

[Hussar]

I'm not really changing the rules. The components are already there. I'm making it more clear to all viewers that a summon is being cast, and everyone who can see it knows who is casting it.
/snip

Sure, I ham up the cause/effect visuals. This is to discourage summoning during combat.

Summoning before combat is still an alternative, but 1 round/level means you better know you're going into combat immediately or it's wasted.

Some times, summoning in combat works. Such as when you're fighting a zombie horde, and they are far enough away that they won't get AoOs - they're not smart enough to recognize the spell, spellcaster, or effects, and they won't deliberately interrupt - though they might happen to decide the summoner is yummy and try to eat him, if there's nobody else closer or yummier.

All I'm doing with this is making it easier to spot the summoner. I'm making sure nobody thinks it's a few whispered words and a quick hand gesture, then spend 6 seconds sitting around acting innocent until your summoned critter *poofs* onto the battlefield.

So, if I'm invisible, I still generate magic juju? That's entirely a house rule. Never mind the fact that it requires a Spellcraft check to know that I'm casting summoning spells. Do you require your enemies to spend a round making a Spellcraft check as well?

What about other 1 round casting time spells like, say, Sleep?

In other words, as I said, you changed the rules to make summoning a sub par option. That is certainly one way to go. But, I'd much rather just remove the spell from play. Why bother with pages of rules that aren't going to be used?

 

[KarinsDad]

Wait, what?

A Summon Monster spell does not generate magic juju streaming out of your hand, at least per RAW.

No, it doesn't. But, creatures still know that the caster is casting a spell per RAW. It still provokes Attacks of Opportunity.

 

[ruleslawyer]

To be precise, opponents know that the caster is dropping his guard.

 

[Crosswind]

To be precise...err, they don't. Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast requires that it see or hear somatic/verbal components. And people only get an AoO you're not casting defensively...so, no guard is being dropped.

If you defensively cast a silent, stilled spell, I'm not sure it's possible that the effect can be linked to you, unless the effect is "A ray shoots out of your hands", etc.

-Cross

 

[ruleslawyer]

I was responding to KarinsDad. The fact that (non-defensively) casting a spell provokes AoOs by the RAW doesn't mean that your opponents know what kind of spell you're casting, or even if you're casting a spell at all.