MichaelSomething
Legend
Rituals shouldn't be cheaper, they should be more powerful! Make it so that the time and gold they cost are really worth it!
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WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?
- Thread starter Windjammer
- Start date
wlmartin
Explorer
Rituals are to some overly complicated because I don't think WotC introduced them properly and are under some illusion that they did (so now they dont think they need to).
Rituals are fantastic - Alchemist Rituals basically allow you to apply monster bane type effects to weapons - whilst the Monster Bane weapons are gone, Alchemy with a little help can bring them back and even better, you can apply them as a consumable so it suits an adventure
Overall Rituals to some players and DMs seem complicated when they really arent but they are complicated because WotC just shoved them into the corebooks without actually introducing them properly.
Why arent there more Rituals in WotC prepublished Adventures?
I may be wrong but this seems a case of WotC creating a system of spells/actions that they made too complex by not supporting them with adequate ... support!
Rituals are fun... They are a way to bring Roleplay into the game and any DM that really wants to make his games shine should fine a way to throw Ritual Scrolls into the mix as like Skill Challenges they give players a chance to use their brains rather than roll dice for the chance to hit something
Rituals are fantastic - Alchemist Rituals basically allow you to apply monster bane type effects to weapons - whilst the Monster Bane weapons are gone, Alchemy with a little help can bring them back and even better, you can apply them as a consumable so it suits an adventure
Overall Rituals to some players and DMs seem complicated when they really arent but they are complicated because WotC just shoved them into the corebooks without actually introducing them properly.
Why arent there more Rituals in WotC prepublished Adventures?
I may be wrong but this seems a case of WotC creating a system of spells/actions that they made too complex by not supporting them with adequate ... support!
Rituals are fun... They are a way to bring Roleplay into the game and any DM that really wants to make his games shine should fine a way to throw Ritual Scrolls into the mix as like Skill Challenges they give players a chance to use their brains rather than roll dice for the chance to hit something
Hadrian the Builder
First Post
There are other resources, such as hit points and healing surges, in the game that might be used for a new ritual mechanic. One might even make a case for burning an encounter or a daily power to cast a ritual. I think it's worth looking at non-gold options and not fiddling with the treasure system to address rituals.
It seems like there are two pools of rituals; ones with utility that can be measured on a per day basis, and those whose utility has more of a narrative focus during down time.
Casting knock from sunrise to sunset on a non-adventuring day doesn't have any real impact on the story, any more than having a high lockpick. It's only impact is during an adventuring day; thus, it should be able to use adventuring day resources.
Other things have a deeper impact, like hand of fate; given a week of down time an unlimited (or even daily resource) ritual casting and some of the scry effects can be pretty abusive. Its results are more long term, and that knowledge starts to become tangible, and it has a value.
The catch is, the adventuring day ones need to be done in a way that doesn't overrule a trained class.
Healing Surges could work for this; it's a significant investment.
Burning a daily would also work.
I think I like Action Points best of all, because you can't just burn through them at once.
Also, for something that removes a skill, letting the ritual just act as a conduit to use Arcana, Nature, or Religion in place of that skill for an encounter/round might help keep the other PCs engaged.
There is another option, something I have been messing around with in my notes called "Mystic Lore." It is, essentially, of a kind with Master Training or Divine Boones. A non-item ... Item, that essentially grants a daily or encounter power. Daily uses of this power would use the "Daily Magic Item Power" resource (needs a better name), preventing abuse in a similar way to the Action Point idea.
So, knock could become a daily power that you spend gold to learn, that lets you use Arcana in place to Thievery 1/day or 1/encounter.
Casting knock from sunrise to sunset on a non-adventuring day doesn't have any real impact on the story, any more than having a high lockpick. It's only impact is during an adventuring day; thus, it should be able to use adventuring day resources.
Other things have a deeper impact, like hand of fate; given a week of down time an unlimited (or even daily resource) ritual casting and some of the scry effects can be pretty abusive. Its results are more long term, and that knowledge starts to become tangible, and it has a value.
The catch is, the adventuring day ones need to be done in a way that doesn't overrule a trained class.
Healing Surges could work for this; it's a significant investment.
Burning a daily would also work.
I think I like Action Points best of all, because you can't just burn through them at once.
Also, for something that removes a skill, letting the ritual just act as a conduit to use Arcana, Nature, or Religion in place of that skill for an encounter/round might help keep the other PCs engaged.
There is another option, something I have been messing around with in my notes called "Mystic Lore." It is, essentially, of a kind with Master Training or Divine Boones. A non-item ... Item, that essentially grants a daily or encounter power. Daily uses of this power would use the "Daily Magic Item Power" resource (needs a better name), preventing abuse in a similar way to the Action Point idea.
So, knock could become a daily power that you spend gold to learn, that lets you use Arcana in place to Thievery 1/day or 1/encounter.
Hadrian the Builder
First Post
I don't like grouping rituals in terms of chronological scope of utility, such as combat vs. adventuring day.
Using knock, (again!), for example: Letting it work all day won't really affect the narrative, since either the thief or the ritual caster was going to open all those doors anyways. But, if the caster does all the work, then the thief gets his toes stepped on. And that's an often cited problem under the older editions. (which you did acknowledge, I saw)
I think the trend should be towards reducing restrictions. Let players try those rituals at any time, including in combat. Maybe they'll come up with a creative use of of Animal Friendship or Leomund's Secret Chest in the middle of an encounter.
If you're going to let a player focus on one skill (such as arcana), and then let him use that skill in place of one (such as diplomacy) that he has not invested in, then it needs to limit the effectiveness of the player in the second skill compared to the player that actually focused on diplomacy. And I don't think it's enough to make it cost more, regardless of the resource used for accounting.
That said, I agree that putting an adventuring day cost on a ritual, such as a healing surge, will make casters think carefully about using rituals during an adventure. But since some classes are so limited in surges, I think that hit points are a grainier option.
Using knock, (again!), for example: Letting it work all day won't really affect the narrative, since either the thief or the ritual caster was going to open all those doors anyways. But, if the caster does all the work, then the thief gets his toes stepped on. And that's an often cited problem under the older editions. (which you did acknowledge, I saw)
I think the trend should be towards reducing restrictions. Let players try those rituals at any time, including in combat. Maybe they'll come up with a creative use of of Animal Friendship or Leomund's Secret Chest in the middle of an encounter.
If you're going to let a player focus on one skill (such as arcana), and then let him use that skill in place of one (such as diplomacy) that he has not invested in, then it needs to limit the effectiveness of the player in the second skill compared to the player that actually focused on diplomacy. And I don't think it's enough to make it cost more, regardless of the resource used for accounting.
That said, I agree that putting an adventuring day cost on a ritual, such as a healing surge, will make casters think carefully about using rituals during an adventure. But since some classes are so limited in surges, I think that hit points are a grainier option.
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