WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?

[MrBeens]

Hmmm...I've tried to run with your idea a little (even though I should be focused on work...). Here's what I've come up with:

This could be like having the Jump ritual. It gives the wizard a great bonus to a long jump or high jump, but not to Athletics. As the ritual caster grows in casting ability, he'll have a broader range of rituals to work with and become more versatile.

But to limit the toe-stepping, maybe those rituals would only allow you to take 10 on a skill check, or maybe they let you hit a level dependent DC. That way, the ritual caster is incapable of the phenomenal successes that a trained character can hit. In a sense, it would mean that caster's could have an average shot at succeeding at an average challenge, but no chance at succeeding on a greater challenge. That could emphasize the utility role of spellcasting as compared to the benefits of having an expert.

Maybe for casters that are actually trained in the skill, the get a bonus to their normal skill roll instead of an automatic result.

And by limiting casters to spells per day, you further emphasize that the experts can ALWAYS do their thing, while the caster may be able to fill in in a pinch.

You are assuming here that all ritual casters are spell casters.
What if a fighter or ranger takes ritual caster?

 

[Scribble]

You are assuming here that all ritual casters are spell casters.
What if a fighter or ranger takes ritual caster?

I don't think it would matter much if the caster is choosing between physical skill increase or magic skill increase.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

You are assuming here that all ritual casters are spell casters.
What if a fighter or ranger takes ritual caster?

I'm not assuming that; instead, I'm using the terms interchangeably. With the new power system, rituals are spells, and the "combat spells" are really just flavor text for powers. So, I'm being a little casual with my word choice.

That said, the idea still stands. Give ritual casters a spell progression. Make it part of the feat and part of the ritual system.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I agree with you. That's why I proposed that ritual casters who are untrained in a skill be less effective than those who are trained (in my posts above).

Except you're still giving them way too much, for very little buy in - one measly feat, that many classes get for free!

Putting them on a vancian table just restores the 15 minute day, or allows the ritualist to reign supreme in times where their spell load isnt exceeded. The lack of gold requirement means it costs nothing on days when you dont adventure, so we're back to casters doing the prep-work for adventures.

Ritual Caster grants a very broad access. Accordingly, it doesnt do it well, fast and free. If you want to do it well, you need to spend character creation resources on these abilities. I could get behind a set of feats that granted a couple of additional non-combat utility powers, similar to the Skill Power feats. At that point, the caster has spent resources to gain a specific ability, which works better than the generalist ritual caster feat.

With respect, I disagree that the current system is fine. Players generally avoid using rituals, and as a community we've been trying to "fix" the ritual system ever since we got it. Rituals are the new Grapple.

No, its mainly the people who want to restore casters to center stage wanting to "fix" rituals. People have been griping about wizards/clerics/druids being reduced to just another regular party member since 4th edition came out, instead of the living gods they were in previous editions.

Rituas are nothing like the new grapple. People didnt understand grapple. They understand rituals just fine, its just not the answer players of casters want to hear. "No, you cant dominate play".

 

[Scribble]

No, its mainly the people who want to restore casters to center stage wanting to "fix" rituals. People have been griping about wizards/clerics/druids being reduced to just another regular party member since 4th edition came out, instead of the living gods they were in previous editions.

Rituas are nothing like the new grapple. People didnt understand grapple. They understand rituals just fine, its just not the answer players of casters want to hear. "No, you cant dominate play".

I don't want to restore casters to center stage, or allow them to dominate play- I think you're painting with too wide a brush here.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

Thanks for the critical commentary on my brainstorming. I hope my responses don't come across as gruff, but I don't have time for a better response right now.

Except you're still giving them way too much, for very little buy in - one measly feat, that many classes get for free!

They still have to buy the rituals to learn them. Or at the very least, any in addition to the one per level.

Putting them on a vancian table just restores the 15 minute day,

Even in 4e, there are plenty of parties that take rests to restore blow dailies. This is an issue that belongs to the DM, not to the system.

or allows the ritualist to reign supreme in times where their spell load isnt exceeded.

Reign supreme in what? Based on the responses I've gotten earlier, I've adjusted the idea so that casters aren't as good as the experts. For rituals with a combat effect, players still have their powers. And given that the system is designed to produce 5-6 rounds of combat, there's an inherent limit on the number of rituals a caster will get off. Especially since the caster's powers are optimized for combat and are probably a better choice.

The lack of gold requirement means it costs nothing on days when you dont adventure, so we're back to casters doing the prep-work for adventures.

With respect, this strikes me as exaggerated. I don't think you're giving enough weight to the suggested limitations.

Ritual Caster grants a very broad access. Accordingly, it doesnt do it well, fast and free. If you want to do it well, you need to spend character creation resources on these abilities. I could get behind a set of feats that granted a couple of additional non-combat utility powers, similar to the Skill Power feats. At that point, the caster has spent resources to gain a specific ability, which works better than the generalist ritual caster feat.

The generally accepted trade-off for versatility is depth of expertise. It doesn't have to be speed or expense. In my opinion, part of the problem with the current ritual system is the type of trade-off it offers. Most players would seem to agree, which is why they don't get used much.

No, its mainly the people who want to restore casters to center stage wanting to "fix" rituals. People have been griping about wizards/clerics/druids being reduced to just another regular party member since 4th edition came out, instead of the living gods they were in previous editions.

Rituas are nothing like the new grapple. People didnt understand grapple. They understand rituals just fine, its just not the answer players of casters want to hear. "No, you cant dominate play".

I read this as an ad hominem argument. Is that your intent?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Thanks for the critical commentary on my brainstorming. I hope my responses don't come across as gruff, but I don't have time for a better response right now.



They still have to buy the rituals to learn them. Or at the very least, any in addition to the one per level.

Again, non-ritualists cant throw some gold down a hole, and get to scry, scry, speak with dead, etc. The cost *is* minimal to get a bunch of additional non-combat utility. Part of 4th editions design is SPECIFICALLY to shift power away from casters being the dominant narrative voice.

If there were no rituals at all, casters would still have the same tools as everyone else. Skills, powers, ability checks, etc.

Rituals are essentially a freebie. Its by design that they arent super awesome. Even if you never touch them, you've lost nothing. If you feel they arent useful, dont use them.

Even in 4e, there are plenty of parties that take rests to restore blow dailies. This is an issue that belongs to the DM, not to the system.

During combat days, yes. We're talking non-combat utility there. World building. Narrative shaping. During downtime, all party members should have roughly the same impact on the storyline. But when you have a guy tossing out tons of magical effects, it creates imbalances. Its why things like surges arent a good resource to limit magic's impact.

Reign supreme in what? Based on the responses I've gotten earlier, I've adjusted the idea so that casters aren't as good as the experts.

What experts? The guy with a gather information so high he can speak with the dead? The guy whose heal skill can raise the dead? The guy with the athletics check so high he can fly? Rituals do more than just replicate a few skills. If all you want to do is perform a skill... take the skill and call it magic. That 1/2 level bonus wizards get reflects their training, fluff it as magic.

For rituals with a combat effect, players still have their powers.

And given that the system is designed to produce 5-6 rounds of combat, there's an inherent limit on the number of rituals a caster will get off. Especially since the caster's powers are optimized for combat and are probably a better choice.

Again, its an extra tier of abilities. The ritualist ALSO has powers. There should be no combat rituals, period.

With respect, this strikes me as exaggerated. I don't think you're giving enough weight to the suggested limitations.

No, because the limitations are some nebulous "we'll be sure not to step on anyone's toes, but still be good enough to use all the time". So a limiatation that's not really a limitation doesnt count. If the gold and time are preventing you from using rituals frequently, then balance has been struck. You want extra powers? Spend precious and limited character resources on them.

The generally accepted trade-off for versatility is depth of expertise. It doesn't have to be speed or expense. In my opinion, part of the problem with the current ritual system is the type of trade-off it offers. Most players would seem to agree, which is why they don't get used much.

Most players dont. See, we can both imply we've got the majority on our side.

I read this as an ad hominem argument. Is that your intent?

Take it how you will. Previous editions spoiled casters to no end by making them center stage, magic the go-to solution, and the driving focus of the party's problem solving abilities. When 4th edition rolled around, they reacted like brats, and have been trying to cram extra power back in casters ever since. The holws of rage at being forced down to a level playing field were music to my ears. There's really no justification for giving casters another suite of abilities to call on easily. Previous editions poor balance is no reason to drag it back into this one.

 

[Scribble]

Most players dont. See, we can both imply we've got the majority on our side.

To be fair his implication is backed by Wizard's own claims...

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

*groans*
I've fallen down the rabbit again...getting too focused on the example.

I'm just brainstorming ideas. I'm not committed to this example mechanic I was using. The OP was about new ways to "price" rituals, and I was merely trying to look backward for inspiration.

Since I'm playing both editions, I see room for a hybrid solutions that mitigates the problems of either edition and gives us new problems to discuss here on the boards.

I don't like the current setup for ritual casting in 4th. And I don;t think that adjusting gp prices is enough to fix it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Again, non-ritualists cant throw some gold down a hole, and get to scry, scry, speak with dead, etc. The cost *is* minimal to get a bunch of additional non-combat utility. Part of 4th editions design is SPECIFICALLY to shift power away from casters being the dominant narrative voice.

If there were no rituals at all, casters would still have the same tools as everyone else. Skills, powers, ability checks, etc.

Rituals are essentially a freebie. Its by design that they arent super awesome. Even if you never touch them, you've lost nothing. If you feel they arent useful, dont use them.



During combat days, yes. We're talking non-combat utility there. World building. Narrative shaping. During downtime, all party members should have roughly the same impact on the storyline. But when you have a guy tossing out tons of magical effects, it creates imbalances. Its why things like surges arent a good resource to limit magic's impact.



What experts? The guy with a gather information so high he can speak with the dead? The guy whose heal skill can raise the dead? The guy with the athletics check so high he can fly? Rituals do more than just replicate a few skills. If all you want to do is perform a skill... take the skill and call it magic. That 1/2 level bonus wizards get reflects their training, fluff it as magic.


Again, its an extra tier of abilities. The ritualist ALSO has powers. There should be no combat rituals, period.





No, because the limitations are some nebulous "we'll be sure not to step on anyone's toes, but still be good enough to use all the time". So a limiatation that's not really a limitation doesnt count. If the gold and time are preventing you from using rituals frequently, then balance has been struck. You want extra powers? Spend precious and limited character resources on them.




Most players dont. See, we can both imply we've got the majority on our side.




Take it how you will. Previous editions spoiled casters to no end by making them center stage, magic the go-to solution, and the driving focus of the party's problem solving abilities. When 4th edition rolled around, they reacted like brats, and have been trying to cram extra power back in casters ever since. The holws of rage at being forced down to a level playing field were music to my ears. There's really no justification for giving casters another suite of abilities to call on easily. Previous editions poor balance is no reason to drag it back into this one.

I'm entirely in agreement with you on your assessment of rituals. In fact the system is so close to dead on overall that it is a pretty nice testament to how well the whole system was designed.

OTOH the fact does remain. Most players of characters with ritual casting don't go out of their way to use it. I think if you were to survey all the players out there somehow you'd find it is less neglected than some people would imagine, but it hasn't become a mainstay kind of subsystem that any but a tiny fraction of players rely on consistently.

The thing is if you actually build a character optimized to be an excellent ritualist you can do quite a lot with that. HOWEVER you will still need to be able to function in combat, where your rituals don't help you directly. Beyond that they require an actual effort. You have to keep thinking about them. You don't just get them automatically. Powers show up and you HAVE to choose one. Even if you ignore it you have it on your sheet and it is taking up a limited slot. With rituals you can just sort of forget and nobody will really notice that much. The benefits are somewhat intangible as well, and tend to actually be at odds with the philosophy of the game at present (use a ritual to bypass an encounter or short circuit a challenge, well you probably just missed some XP and treasure).

The more subtle problem though is sunk costs. When a character buys a magic item it is actually unlikely to be as cost-effective as a ritual, assuming you have ritual casting capability. At least this is pretty much true of 'non-big-three' items. The thing is if you buy an item, you have the item. When you buy a ritual you have a ritual, true, but then you buy a casting of the ritual and that money is gone. You probably gained more than the amortized use costs for an item, but human psychology is such that if character A buys an item for 1000gp and player B buys a ritual for 500gp and casts it a couple times at 100gp a pop while A never even uses his item A will feel like he's 'got his money's worth' because he still has something to hold onto and might use someday. Player B OTOH will feel like he's a couple 100gp to the bad. Yes those couple of castings may have done marvels in the game, but the default assumption is you survive, and no matter what you do as long as you live you get the same finite amounts of treasure and items, so there's really nothing tangible to show for the outlay. A has a magic item, B has a ritual, but he's got 'nothing' for the cost of casting it.

The real issue is thus that WotC can't 'fix' the ritual system because it is both at the same time not broken and broken. You can't fix what isn't broken, and yet you need to fix what is broken. The effective response has been to just leave the whole system in limbo and kind of just make the problem go away.

Frankly I don't have a solution to offer either. The best I've suggested is looking very hard at the parcel system, because costs are root of the issue and that is all about available funds vs outlayed funds. From the general lack of comments on that I've seen I'll have to assume that my opinion there is either largely not shared or the whole issue is too unclear for much to be said about it.