WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Why? Good question. I propose that just as email has replaced a lot of written correspondence, those with access to rituals will often have another option than the mundane. You might ride a horse because you need to travel through the territory (for example, you're on patrol). You might ride a dragon because they offer a wide variety of advantages besides the ability to get from one point to another.

The problem is when a wizard get the equivalent of a ton of skills (and stuff that skills cant hope to accomplish, like talking to the dead) by taking ritual caster. Its not like the rogue can spend a feat on "do anything" that simply requires a gold/surge/whatever funnel to activate. Your suggestion boils down to "give wizards the same resources as everyone else, plus these rituals, just because." There's 3.5 editions of casters getting to reign supreme if that's what you want.

When magic gets to be a swiss army knife with an ever expanding repertoir of what it can do, the proper trade off is that it does it poorly, much like a swiss army knife is a poor substitute for a screwdriver or hacksaw. When the ritual caster is filling his skill/utility power slots with "ritual: thievery or knock", then it gets to be as good. Andf I'm not talking spell slots either, I'm talking permanent abilities, no tradesies. Because "superhero who gets to repick his superpowers every day" sucks when your rogue/ranger/fighter cant rememorize his skills, special abilities and attacks on the fly.

I'm not into the whole "just as good, a couple of times per day" thing, because it puts the onus back on the DM to make sure there are extra locks or whatever so the rogue isnt invalidated.

The ritual system is mostly fine as is, it grants versatility at the cost of time and resources. People just got incredibly spoiled by casters in previous editions. Magic was too easy, too cheap, and the default answer to problems, at the expense of any non-caster schmuck with the group. If its the thing you reach for to solve problems first, its not magic anymore, its just a mundane tool.

 

[Scribble]

What if rituals "replaced" skills for casters? If you take the rituals feat, you cannot learn new skills, or you do so very slowly, or have to choose one or the other.

In their place you buy advancement in casting ability. Magic is powerful, but hard to learn, so you have to devote all your study time to learning to control it.

After a while you become so reliant on magic, that you literally can't do anything without it.

 

[Siberys]

At that point, though, wouldn't it be easier just to take Skill Training (Thievery), and describe it as using magic?

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

The problem is when a wizard get the equivalent of a ton of skills [...] like talking to the dead) by taking ritual caster.

When magic gets to be a swiss army knife with an ever expanding repertoir of what it can do, the proper trade off is that it does it poorly, much like a swiss army knife is a poor substitute for a screwdriver or hacksaw.

I'm not into the whole "just as good, a couple of times per day" thing, because it puts the onus back on the DM to make sure there are extra locks or whatever so the rogue isnt invalidated.

I agree with you. That's why I proposed that ritual casters who are untrained in a skill be less effective than those who are trained (in my posts above).

The ritual system is mostly fine as is, it grants versatility at the cost of time and resources.

With respect, I disagree that the current system is fine. Players generally avoid using rituals, and as a community we've been trying to "fix" the ritual system ever since we got it. Rituals are the new Grapple.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

What if rituals "replaced" skills for casters? If you take the rituals feat, you cannot learn new skills, or you do so very slowly, or have to choose one or the other.

In their place you buy advancement in casting ability. Magic is powerful, but hard to learn, so you have to devote all your study time to learning to control it.

After a while you become so reliant on magic, that you literally can't do anything without it.

That's an interesting idea, and it might work with more flesh on it. But, off the cuff, it's my feeling that it's too heavy a penalty to exclude a class from the skill system.

IMO, your proposition would require affected classes to either start with spells to represent all or most skills OR require the player to "sit out" during challenges that their not skilled at.

In the first case, the skill system has simply been co-opted and refitted with some window dressing. In the second, you've penalized the player for a class selection.

 

[Balesir]

With respect, I disagree that the current system is fine. Players generally avoid using rituals, and as a community we've been trying to "fix" the ritual system ever since we got it. Rituals are the new Grapple.

Rituals aren't seeing huge use at low level, sure. As you go into Paragon, however, they ramp up as the costs become less and less relevant.

It does need fixing - but turning it into the old "Swiss Army Knife" of magic isn't the answer.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

Agreed. My primary point was that there are elements of the old spell casting system that could be (and in my opinion ARE) possible fixes, and that some of the problems with the old system and the new could be avoided. I got a little into the weeds kludging together an example though.

 

[Scribble]

That's an interesting idea, and it might work with more flesh on it. But, off the cuff, it's my feeling that it's too heavy a penalty to exclude a class from the skill system.

IMO, your proposition would require affected classes to either start with spells to represent all or most skills OR require the player to "sit out" during challenges that their not skilled at.

In the first case, the skill system has simply been co-opted and refitted with some window dressing. In the second, you've penalized the player for a class selection.

Well I kind of prefer the window dressing- in my mind at least everyone wins in that scenario.

The magic user gets to use magic to do stuff, but without usurping the power of the non magic user to act in the game. You're essentially "Doing what the thief does" but you could have done that anyway by investing those skill slots in thievery stuff.

But I think it could be sort of a mix- since anyone can take the rituals feat, you could choose each level where you want to invest your "skill points" into more magical power, or more non magical power.

Perhaps the trade off could be magic is more "reliable" but less versatile. The Thievery skill applies to many situations, so you can use it to do any of the sub "skills" listed- whereas magic would need a specific ritual for each subset, but at the benefit of easier DCs or something?

Dunno- this is far from any kind of idea that I've spent any length of time thinking about.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

Hmmm...I've tried to run with your idea a little (even though I should be focused on work...). Here's what I've come up with:

This could be like having the Jump ritual. It gives the wizard a great bonus to a long jump or high jump, but not to Athletics. As the ritual caster grows in casting ability, he'll have a broader range of rituals to work with and become more versatile.

But to limit the toe-stepping, maybe those rituals would only allow you to take 10 on a skill check, or maybe they let you hit a level dependent DC. That way, the ritual caster is incapable of the phenomenal successes that a trained character can hit. In a sense, it would mean that caster's could have an average shot at succeeding at an average challenge, but no chance at succeeding on a greater challenge. That could emphasize the utility role of spellcasting as compared to the benefits of having an expert.

Maybe for casters that are actually trained in the skill, the get a bonus to their normal skill roll instead of an automatic result.

And by limiting casters to spells per day, you further emphasize that the experts can ALWAYS do their thing, while the caster may be able to fill in in a pinch.

 

[Scribble]

I like the cut of your jib!

Perhaps each ritual has a target dc range it can achieve? So you have to upgrade at some point to a more powerful ritual?