WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?

[Matt James]

Then, using your example of knock, why would Thievery ever be used to pick locks to open doors? With the travel rituals, why would anyone ever buy a horse? Or even a riding dragon?

Rituals are not yet "right", but the basic idea of stopping the casters doing everybody else's job better than they could was a basically sound one, IMV.

Spot on, Balesir.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Then, using your example of knock, why would Thievery ever be used to pick locks to open doors? With the travel rituals, why would anyone ever buy a horse? Or even a riding dragon?

Rituals are not yet "right", but the basic idea of stopping the casters doing everybody else's job better than they could was a basically sound one, IMV.

I basically agree, one standard action is too quick but say one full round per level of ritual might be worth doing. It is not as quick as the thief but probably quicker than the figher (in hte case of knock) and possible to cast in combat but risky.

I would also need additional rules to cover interuptions and so forth.

 

[SkidAce]

I know I'm in the minority....

But I'm okay with rituals as is. They are the longer magical effects that take time and prep, not just 6, 12, or 18 seconds.

And some could even be longer, I mean how are the heroes supposed to stop the BBG wizard (or ritual casting fighter) from opening the Demon Portal From Heck in less than a minute? That thing takes hours or days to cast..../grin.

Now maybe a paragon feat to "prep" a ritual, with level constraints or something would be okay. I could then have the BBG finish the ritual and "poof" in comes the Balor reinforcements! DUN DUN DUN!

 

[Ryujin]

Why, they stop the BBEG from completing the ritual by smashing the MacGuffin, at the very last second of course.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You're not alone. I could see being able to gain the effect of certain rituals instantly, but just make it an item. "Chime of Opening", you can craft one, but it isn't really going to be cheap, and the level of the item determines what it will open.

 

[Balesir]

You're not alone. I could see being able to gain the effect of certain rituals instantly, but just make it an item. "Chime of Opening", you can craft one, but it isn't really going to be cheap, and the level of the item determines what it will open.

The problem, in the 4E universe, here is that it will always be called upon to open "level appropriate" locks. If it does not do that, it's useless, but if it does, it invalidates an aspect of Thievery. What is really needed is some sort of resource that it costs - like, oh, Daily Magic Item Uses...

(OK, it's a crap name, and the idea that they were only required for Daily Item powers - and for all Daily Item powers - was flawed, but the basic idea of a milestone-driven resource for Item powers was really useful, it seems to me).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The problem, in the 4E universe, here is that it will always be called upon to open "level appropriate" locks. If it does not do that, it's useless, but if it does, it invalidates an aspect of Thievery. What is really needed is some sort of resource that it costs - like, oh, Daily Magic Item Uses...

(OK, it's a crap name, and the idea that they were only required for Daily Item powers - and for all Daily Item powers - was flawed, but the basic idea of a milestone-driven resource for Item powers was really useful, it seems to me).

Why? There are always those really tough locks. Challenges need not be AT your level, they can range quite a bit higher, 5 levels certainly. Sure, there generally needs to be some other way to get on with the story, but that would be true regardless of HOW the thing is opened. I also don't really see a reason why an item has to work automatically. It can do whatever, like work exactly like Knock (in terms of DCs) or it can let the user make an Arcana check with a +5 vs lock DC or whatever the heck works.

Nor is there any reason why an item like this can't simply cost the same thing to 'charge' as the Knock ritual does, except you get an instant result that one time a day when you really really need it. In any case the rogue does this for free, any other way of doing it will cost SOMETHING. The trick is to make the cost meaningful. The problem with the whole idea of having temporary resources like HS the cost for rituals is it is still often no cost at all. For knock it probably isn't a big deal, you'll rarely need to open a lock RIGHT NOW unless the situation is one where an HS is a real cost, but the concept simply isn't generally applicable.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

Then, using your example of knock, why would Thievery ever be used to pick locks to open doors? With the travel rituals, why would anyone ever buy a horse? Or even a riding dragon?

Why? Good question. I propose that just as email has replaced a lot of written correspondence, those with access to rituals will often have another option than the mundane. You might ride a horse because you need to travel through the territory (for example, you're on patrol). You might ride a dragon because they offer a wide variety of advantages besides the ability to get from one point to another.

There should still be a cost to acquire the ritual (or additional rituals, if you grant one new one per level). Continuing with the knock example: the ritual caster may not know the ritual, may not have it prepared, or there may be more than one locked door. Just as always, the usefulness of utility spellcasting is situational, but rogues can be counted on to have some lock-picking ability any time you need it.

Rituals are not yet "right", but the basic idea of stopping the casters doing everybody else's job better than they could was a basically sound one, IMV.

I agree with this goal. And I think that the idea of granting nature rituals to nature classes, religion to divine, and arcane to arcane would limit the toe-stepping quite a bit.

I'm not prepared to fully flesh out a new system, but to prevent casters from outdoing everyone else, you might add benefits for those with training in a skill (such as thievery) and a penalty for those without it. In the case of knock, it means that, ceteris paribus, a thief using the knock ritual is more effective than the wizard trying to pinch hit.

 

[Balesir]

I'm not prepared to fully flesh out a new system, but to prevent casters from outdoing everyone else, you might add benefits for those with training in a skill (such as thievery) and a penalty for those without it. In the case of knock, it means that, ceteris paribus, a thief using the knock ritual is more effective than the wizard trying to pinch hit.

Hmm, so, as an example with only a slight change from 4E as it is, rituals might cost gold, as they do now, unless you are trained in the relevant skill - in which case they would be free? That might be an interesting idea, if the rituals available were balanced and controlled nicely.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

Not exactly what I had in mind. Specifically I was thinking that ritual casting classes, like the bard or wizard, would get a per day spell (ritual) progression and spells (rituals) known, as they did in older editions. Every level they get to add a ritual to their known spells list, similar to previous editions (probably limited to just one, though). Additional new rituals would cost money to acquire and add to the spellbook, just as they do now.

Casting a ritual would not cost anything, in general. But just as in older editions, some rituals would have material components or require a special focus.

On top of that, to prevent ritual casters from being better than everyone else at skills, merely by focusing on a single skill (arcana for example), I propose that spells that fill-in or mimic another skill, not work as well for the ritual caster as they do for someone trained in the skill. There are a few different way I can think of to accomplish this, including tying the ritual to the skill it mimics and giving a bonus to casters who are trained in the skill and a penalty to those that are not.