WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?

As for the Mearls part, I am surprised that you missed (or chose to ignore) the most obvious part of the quotes. The timeline. In September 2010 (the first quote), Mearls was head of R&D. I am fairly sure he was designing. The second quote was very recently, after Bill S. stepped down and Mearls was promoted to a new position. I mean, how can you hold him to something he said when his job description obviously has changed a lot. Besides, someone else has taken over his old job of head at R&D, and that person will be doing a lot of designing (presumably under the careful eye of Mearls).

You're totally right, the second quote IS recent (as pointed out in the OP), whereas the first one is, as I said right in the OP, comes from "Back in September 2010". Mearls stepped in for Bill's job shortly before July 13, 2011. And these TEN months inbetween so totally didn't leave him with time to design?

Rrrright.

Honestly, the more charitable thing is too go for a conspiracy theory that Mearls is actually at work on something behind the scenes. Either that or he's twiddling his thumbs, writing up his next grand proclamation.
 

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....and because I just saw it now, Mearls' latest post of today addresses the issue head on (thanks!):

As I’ve been working on this series of columns, it’s been interesting to read your reactions here and on the forums. A number of times I’ve seen people point out that it would be nice to see some actual design.


I have a confession to make: I’m no longer a game designer at Wizards of the Coast. In my new role, I’m a manager. I guide the teams, but I don’t do the actual design work. So what you’re about to see is work done by a guy who’s a little out of practice. I’m going to show you some of our previously discussed concepts on (virtual) paper. They might be terrible, they might be great. Most likely, they’ll be somewhere in the middle. What I hope to get, though, is a sense of any value these ideas might have.
 

As I've noted before, I think Rituals are one of the best features of 4e. I think it's very unfortunate that WotC seem to have dropped almost all support for them (and also Epic levels). Although they may not have a huge place in the adventure, they're really great for the campaign, and make up a large part of that "out of combat utility" that 4e is (unfairly) accused of lacking.

I also think it's unfortunate that Mearls seems to have moved from designing the games into management - it just seems a big waste of talent.

Oh well.
 

Parcels and the ability to purchase magic items.
Yes, I think these two are bound up together. If money <=> magic items (and thus items are part of the party "build"/resources) then the resource availability has to be constrained.

One other possibility is for the DM to track the PCs' total "net g.p. worth" and continually aim for a specified "glide path" in their treasure inclusion, but that is a bit clunky/hard work for the DM.

I know this puts me sort in the hoary old curmudgeon camp, but I'm solidly in the "magic items aren't for purchase" camp because I don't like what it does to PC spending. Without the ability to buy magic items, players historically spent money on sailing ships, property, keeps, luxuries, charity -- investments that you want to come home to. Rituals are much the same way; spending money becomes a way to personalize your character rather than optimize him.
If money becomes "fluff", would it still perform the reward/motivation to step up to the challenge/enter the dungeon function it has traditionally done? I don't really know - I just preferred the original 4E design where it was a resource relevant to play (and the only one that was freely sharable by the party as a whole, rather than tied to a specific PC).

But even when that's the case, there's still the issue of them being too expensive at low levels (where most of my 4e experience resides). My wife's very fond of ritual casting, but gets frustrated because they're too expensive to cast casually, and non-casual uses require the DM to set up.
My experience so far says Mike Mearls was pretty much spot on in his comments. At Heroic rituals are rarely used, but by late Heroic/Early Paragon they cut in and later they get ridiculously cheap. I am hopeful that the rework they are doing can "stretch" this "sweet spot" that remains in 4E...

Actually, a good example might be the Alchemical items, with their fixed "to Hit" bonuses and damage. Currently, they are too expensive at the levels they might be useful, and nearly worthless at the levels where they are affordable. A 'sliding scale' of bonus and damage by cost might allow them to remain a viable option throughout.
 

the rituals need to be faster - some would just be "hey you *insert god name here* take these items as tribute to *insert what to do here*" but those would be the costly ones, the rest may just be complicated magic spells with no cost but some of those spells wouldn't last too long or they would have less effect if they are "quick casted"(they are used quickly) or even normally casted,
do not forget that ALL ritual users should have last word(as a free feat) which means that they can prepare it ahead of time (but they cannot start or prepare a new ritual unless the previous one is either discarded or used) and then they might use it in the thick of battle to revive an ally with raise dead or something(raise dead should require materials relative to the hp restored though as it is a powerful spell if used correctly.)
 

Yes, I think these two are bound up together. If money <=> magic items (and thus items are part of the party "build"/resources) then the resource availability has to be constrained.

One other possibility is for the DM to track the PCs' total "net g.p. worth" and continually aim for a specified "glide path" in their treasure inclusion, but that is a bit clunky/hard work for the DM.

If money becomes "fluff", would it still perform the reward/motivation to step up to the challenge/enter the dungeon function it has traditionally done? I don't really know - I just preferred the original 4E design where it was a resource relevant to play (and the only one that was freely sharable by the party as a whole, rather than tied to a specific PC).

Money was absolutely completely nothing but fluff in 2e, and depending on if you charged PCs for training (which many people didn't) it was fluff in 1e as well. I never noticed the players being any less motivated to find treasure in 2e than any other edition. It might have been a bit less of a primary concern than when it was your source of XP in 1e, but players LIKE treasure. They have dreams and ideas for the game and for their characters. They LOVE to do fluffy things (well, most players do). The players will go after gold just because they like to do things like build houses, etc. There are always going to be SOME ways they can leverage their wealth into some concrete advantages, but DMs can be well advised on how to make that pretty much unimportant.

For instance gaining a henchman can be accomplished only via an SC. You can do various things in the course of this SC to get a henchman, some of them can be 'spend money', but there are plenty of alternate paths that don't involve needing lots of cash. Nor does throwing cash at the problem provide a better solution than any other. The end result is the same, and if cash is just something that you play around with anyway then using it to get a henchman is just an application of fluffing things. "Oh, I spend a lot of money on drinks in the bar" vs "Oh, I use Streetwise to scope out who's got a reputation as a fighter looking for work." Spending the cash might grant automatic success, Streetwise might require a check. You gain some minor amount of advantage from having the gold, but not enough so that you MUST have it. The end results can be just as good either way.

My experience so far says Mike Mearls was pretty much spot on in his comments. At Heroic rituals are rarely used, but by late Heroic/Early Paragon they cut in and later they get ridiculously cheap. I am hopeful that the rework they are doing can "stretch" this "sweet spot" that remains in 4E...

Actually, a good example might be the Alchemical items, with their fixed "to Hit" bonuses and damage. Currently, they are too expensive at the levels they might be useful, and nearly worthless at the levels where they are affordable. A 'sliding scale' of bonus and damage by cost might allow them to remain a viable option throughout.

I think the feat cost for ritual casting might aught to just go away. That won't make every character an expert at it but it will spread it around if people want it. Once you buy a ritual book for a nominal cost then you can either pay for rituals or find them and copy them (or get them from your buddies). You probably still don't want TOO many as books are kind of heavy and each one can hold only a limited number of rituals. Casting them can still cost gold. The main thing is to make sure that the things you can do with them are fairly unique. Unlike the old time wizard problem where the wizard has all the solutions to the world's problems this isn't so much of an issue here as you still need good skills and anyone can potentially learn a few rituals so they have access to that aspect of the game. I'd also create some rules for refluffing rituals in terms of more mundane activities, like Enchant Item can just as easily be "hammer on some adamantium at a dwarven forge for a week" (and then use STR or WIS instead of Arcana to resolve).

Mostly I think rituals just need to be more embedded in the core of the game, have more distinct uses, have a bit lower entry cost, and that gold needs to be pretty much fluff and thus the casting cost is more a choice for the player of "OK, there are these things I can do, they don't cost me adventuring-wise, but they have to be balanced against my character's goals."
 

If money becomes "fluff", would it still perform the reward/motivation to step up to the challenge/enter the dungeon function it has traditionally done? I don't really know - I just preferred the original 4E design where it was a resource relevant to play (and the only one that was freely sharable by the party as a whole, rather than tied to a specific PC).

Well, it depends on the players of course, but if players care about "fluff" at all, then yes. I saw my players get legitimately frustrated in the days of 3.x because the wizard needed extra money to scribe scrolls, and that was money they could have been spending on fluff. Similarly, if a player chooses another motivation -- ascending to the ranks of nobility, vengeance on an old foe, wanderlust -- having money be a necessary motivation kind of undercuts that. I see my players donate part of their spoils to local communities and people who've been victimized by the villains they're killing all the time. I'd hate to see them do less of that because they need the money for magic items -- not because the setting demands they need money for magic items, but because the system demands it.

One of my players recently commented that his current character's motivation of "get enough money to get my daughter married to a really good match, and financially set for life" is his favorite reason to be going after gold pieces in a D&D game ever. Another's looking to start her own mercenary company someday, and needs a big bankroll to be the war chest. This doesn't work for everyone, but personally I love this so much more than "I need to upgrade my implement to a +3" or "I'm saving up for a foot-slot item to augment my build."
 

I didn't take the time to read all of the replies.

I was there during the discussion and might be able to add to this. The OP is rather incorrect in what they put and looks to be purposefully flaming the situation. I'll be careful and not refer to them as a Turd, as that kind of talk gets people banned around here. WotC wants to take a look at Rituals and find a better way to implement them. They even went so far as to say they are evaluating a couple of newer options for implementing them. Even in projects I have worked on, this has come up, and they have definitely not been shelved.

I wish I could say more, but I can't. It's a known issue and instead of spewing out another unsatisfying sub-system, it is being looked at.
 

I'm beginning to favour the idea of splitting the various resources. Rituals via healing surges or hit points, magic items via 'mana', and money for mundane items, and the trappings of temporal power?
 

I'm beginning to favour the idea of splitting the various resources. Rituals via healing surges or hit points, magic items via 'mana', and money for mundane items, and the trappings of temporal power?
I'm not mad about your terms (;)), but division of resources would be fine by me. The problem I forsee is that several folk seem to dislike it when they have to bother their little heads about another resource to manage...

I think that extra resources, considered carefully as to whether they are character-specific or can be shared by the party and preferably accentuating the role of milestones and the number of challenges tackled before an extended rest, could work well if well designed.
 

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