WotC sayz "People don't use rituals much" - O RLY?

[Ryujin]

Toss them *reagents* not gold.

"That magic portal looks old and disused. The runes etched into its surface glitter in the torchlight."
"Can I get any residuum from that?"
"Roll Arcana..."

Tried that. They sold them, even though I gave then 1sp on the gp.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Toss them *reagents* not gold.

"That magic portal looks old and disused. The runes etched into its surface glitter in the torchlight."
"Can I get any residuum from that?"
"Roll Arcana..."

Considering residium goes 1=1 towards magic items, I would not hold my breath on that causing the players to do more rituals.

 

[wedgeski]

Considering residium goes 1=1 towards magic items, I would not hold my breath on that causing the players to do more rituals.

I don't have to, it works extremely well on my group. But, they certainly sound more predisposed to use rituals than Ryujin's band!

 

[Scribble]

A surprising tweet from the GenCon Q&A on the future of D&D (thanks to bloghofholding):

How does this not amount to a great combo of self fulfilling prophecy and closed feedback loop?

Because if you listen to a podcast of what was ACTUALLY said, you'll see that Tweet doesn't really capture it at all.

What he said was more along the lines of- Heroic Tier doesn't see much ritual use because they're too expensive, whereas higher tiers have enough cash that rituals are just too common place.

He then went on to talk about ideas like scaling power rituals that get more powerful the more you put into them, and other possible ritual embettering ideas...

So take a breath- your rant is out of place.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

The problem with Rituals is that they are a game feature which is secondary to the primary design elements. Most of the work on D&D is done relative to combat stuff. Rituals are meant to be used outside of combat.

If there were more effort put into making skill challenges interesting, it would make using Rituals more interesting. Personally I like the idea of rituals, but they are a bit trickier for me to find an opportunity to use. Given the casting time limitation that prevents players from using them outside of combat, my players also have a difficult time finding opportunities to get the most out of them.

If you think I am wrong, then consider the published adventures and game days. How many opportunities are there in the adventures that are currently published to make use of a ritual that was not created for that adventure (ie, if the first time the ritual is published is in the adventure, then it is not that good an example).

Creative players can still do much with them, but it requires a great deal of player effort to recognize the opportunities.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Doubtless there are certainly a few use cases where rituals are too expensive. OTOH even at fairly low levels a lot of them are WAY cheap, and quite a bit cheaper than buying/crafting an item that does an equivalent function when you figure you'll use that item 3 times in your adventuring career, or spend 1/4 that much cash to do the equivalent ritual 3 times.

There is a difference though between the costs to acquire and the costs to cast. The acquisition costs can be steep and I'm not really sure what purpose they serve. Obviously the theory is you are paying for added flexibility, but if you aren't going to want to pay to cast the thing then it isn't really useful added flexibility.

I think the 'gain some free rituals' concept was good though. Personally I tend to toss around 'books of lore' a good bit and the PCs have a pretty large library of rituals they can pick from. At the same time, you don't really want to carry around 20 books, so there's a good question of forethought in terms of what you copy into a specific ritual book so you can bring it with you (vs what you maybe can cast when you're at home in your nice safe lair/castle/tavern/treehouse).

But again, it is the whole mentality that is created by parcels that I find is the real root of the issue. You only ever have so much cash, EVER, you just don't want to waste it.

 

[Barastrondo]

But again, it is the whole mentality that is created by parcels that I find is the real root of the issue. You only ever have so much cash, EVER, you just don't want to waste it.

Parcels and the ability to purchase magic items. I know this puts me sort in the hoary old curmudgeon camp, but I'm solidly in the "magic items aren't for purchase" camp because I don't like what it does to PC spending. Without the ability to buy magic items, players historically spent money on sailing ships, property, keeps, luxuries, charity -- investments that you want to come home to. Rituals are much the same way; spending money becomes a way to personalize your character rather than optimize him.

But even when that's the case, there's still the issue of them being too expensive at low levels (where most of my 4e experience resides). My wife's very fond of ritual casting, but gets frustrated because they're too expensive to cast casually, and non-casual uses require the DM to set up.

 

[Jack99]

And, that's a last gripe, but to me it ties in to the matter raised. I have a very strong impression that 4E is NOT in good hands right now, that R&D does NOT know where they are going with it, and, most importantly, that no WORK is being done.

Back in September 2010 Mearls said in an interview,

How's that not a set of empty promises? Where is that design work for 4E? Well, behold these gem of another GenCon twitter entry:

I'm seriously pissed. The stewardship of D&D is in the hands of people who think the most interesting aspects of the game don't deserve support, and of people who promised to deliver ACTUAL design and then come out saying they don't have much time for design anymore.

I removed the ritual part of your initial post, because that has been addressed by multiple other posters.

As for the Mearls part, I am surprised that you missed (or chose to ignore) the most obvious part of the quotes. The timeline. In September 2010 (the first quote), Mearls was head of R&D. I am fairly sure he was designing. The second quote was very recently, after Bill S. stepped down and Mearls was promoted to a new position. I mean, how can you hold him to something he said when his job description obviously has changed a lot. Besides, someone else has taken over his old job of head at R&D, and that person will be doing a lot of designing (presumably under the careful eye of Mearls).

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I play 4e but prefer pathfinder, to give context.

That said, I don't know if the rant in the OP is totally correct, totally off, or somewhere in between (I expect that the latter is likely closest).


Here's what I have to contribute:

I would love to see more 4e adventures with depth. I think Zeitgeist will be good for 4e (though to a limited audience, unfortunately), and I've enjoyed the Open Design 4e adventures. I'd love if "delves" were...well...worth doing outside of the context they're designed for. Even better, I wish that they offered even more for the context they're designed for.

I would love to see a revamp of rituals. I'd be sad to see them go, and happy to see them improved.


I think it's within WotC's power and ability to do both of those. It would make me happy to see that happen.

 

[Ryujin]

I don't have to, it works extremely well on my group. But, they certainly sound more predisposed to use rituals than Ryujin's band!

Undoubtedly. The one player, who might actually use the odd ritual, is the former DM who can only make it about as often as 'Mark the Red' these days. The Pacifist Cleric, who would be the obvious back-up ritualist, is far more concerned with firing off his -6 to foe's hits and defences, than he is with anything long term. So much so I finally got fed up and had him swallowed by a Remorhaz, in the first round of the first combat, last session.