Unearthed Arcana WOTC still can't get the backgrounds right in the new FR book.

[Maxperson]

it seems the part of the thread where we just throw long posts of number and calculations at each other has begun, so that's my cue to check out of the conversation for a while until that blows over.

Hold on while I calculate how long that will take you based on +1 post per player.

 

[Voadam]

Another thing that annoys me about 24 backgrounds is how much they are framed as DM tools for world building and not PC tools for character building. Even when it talks about meeting a player's concept of their character it is framed as an optional DM thing to do.

From the 24 SRD in the DM section:

Creating a Background
A character’s background represents what the character did prior to becoming an adventurer. Creating a unique background or customizing an existing one can reflect the particular theme of your campaign or elements of your world. You can also create a background to help a player craft the story they have in mind for their character.

In 14 the PH backgrounds were explicitly framed as samples and that the players could modify things to match their character concepts.

14 PH page 125:

"The sample backgrounds in this chapter provide both concrete benefits (features, proficiencies, and languages) and roleplaying suggestions."

"CUSTOMIZING A BACKGROUND
You might want to tweak some of the features of a background so it better fits your character or the campaign setting. To customize a background, you can replace one feature with any other one, choose any two skills, and choose a total of two tool proficiencies or languages from the sample backgrounds."

I much prefer the 14 model of having robust selection of samples ready to go, but also providing a default of crafting your own or modifying them as a PC to meet your character concept.

In my 5e 14 cinematic gothic horror Funeral of Renowned Archaeologist Professor Jones campaign I had the PCs come up with ideas for why they were asked to be pallbearers at the funeral and their connections to the professor or his daughter. The PCs came up with fantastic backgrounds for their characters.

The professor's secretary at the university.

The professor's butler at his estate.

The professor's grave robber assistant on his expeditions.

Mentee junior professor of archaeology (modelled on Daniel Jackson in Stargate complete with fringe theory that ancient elven fantasy Egyptian Pharaohs were actually aliens).

Rival archaeologist (modeled on Belloq from Indiana Jones)

Sometimes partner archaelogist and former on again off again girlfriend (modeled on Elsa from Last Crusade)

It was fantastic and flavorful and no work on my part as DM besides providing them the narrative campaign premise.

 

[FrogReaver]

it seems the part of the thread where we just throw long posts of number and calculations at each other has begun, so that's my cue to check out of the conversation for a while until that blows over.

That’s the part I live for!!!

 

[Azzy]

The 5e PHB also told players to check with the DM for changes and the rules gave the DM veto power, but there were still tons of players who felt that if it was in the PHB, they could just pick it. If the DM said no, he was big bad wrong funning them.

It's there actual evidence of this happening at the table, or is this just another "think of the DMs!" thing that gets trotted out?

Putting it in the DMG makes it crystal clear that the backgrounds, which have a greater potential to fail to meet the DM's setting than feats, races, etc., are DM granted, rather than DM vetoed. It's better if the DM has to say yes for something to happen, rather than saying no to keep it from happening. There are fewer hard feelings that way.

I don't believe that this is a thing outside of a handful of dysfunctional groups and is typically fixed by talking things out like mature individuals. I mean, how do TTRPGs that aren't class-base even function in this dystopian view players?

 

[Maxperson]

I have a sneaking suspicion that since he’s not simulating (his words) that he’s doing something closer to allocating average DPR per turn based on initiative. If so that methodology will tend to produce very skewed results, often amplifying small differences based on discrete breakpoints.

And fails to involve tactics. Those 2nd level fighters, even with second wind, cannot take two hits without going unconscious, but somehow they have a 50% chance of none of them being knocked out?

 

[FrogReaver]

And fails to involve tactics. Those 2nd level fighters, even with second wind, cannot take two hits without going unconscious, but somehow they have a 50% chance of none of them being knocked out?

I mean the tactics seemed reasonable to me. Everything focus fired and PCs apply probably the best weapon masteries for the situation. I can see other reasonable ways to do it but that seems reasonable.

 

[Maxperson]

Another thing that annoys me about 24 backgrounds is how much they are framed as DM tools for world building and not PC tools for character building. Even when it talks about meeting a player's concept of their character it is framed as an optional DM thing to do.

From the 24 SRD in the DM section:

Creating a Background
A character’s background represents what the character did prior to becoming an adventurer. Creating a unique background or customizing an existing one can reflect the particular theme of your campaign or elements of your world. You can also create a background to help a player craft the story they have in mind for their character.

I think you are reading too much into that. It seems to give equal weight to world building and character building from the wording. However, backgrounds are rarely going to conflict with world building, but it can happen. The flipside crafting one to meet the player's story they have in mind for their character will be fairly common.

The end result is that it will be far more a tool to help players meet their visions for their characters, than as a tool limiting character options due to world building.

In 14 the PH backgrounds were explicitly framed as samples and that the players could modify things to match their character concepts.

14 PH page 125:

"The sample backgrounds in this chapter provide both concrete benefits (features, proficiencies, and languages) and roleplaying suggestions."

"CUSTOMIZING A BACKGROUND
You might want to tweak some of the features of a background so it better fits your character or the campaign setting. To customize a background, you can replace one feature with any other one, choose any two skills, and choose a total of two tool proficiencies or languages from the sample backgrounds."

I much prefer the 14 model of having robust selection of samples ready to go, but also providing a default of crafting your own or modifying them as a PC to meet your character concept.

In my 5e 14 cinematic gothic horror Funeral of Renowned Archaeologist Professor Jones campaign I had the PCs come up with ideas for why they were asked to be pallbearers at the funeral and their connections to the professor or his daughter. The PCs came up with fantastic backgrounds for their characters.

The professor's secretary at the university.

The professor's butler at his estate.

The professor's grave robber assistant on his expeditions.

Mentee junior professor of archaeology (modelled on Daniel Jackson in Stargate complete with fringe theory that ancient elven fantasy Egyptian Pharaohs were actually aliens).

Rival archaeologist (modeled on Belloq from Indiana Jones)

Sometimes partner archaelogist and former on again off again girlfriend (modeled on Elsa from Last Crusade)

It was fantastic and flavorful and no work on my part as DM besides providing them the narrative campaign premise.

But the 5e PHB said to talk to the DM about his limitations and the DM was told repeatedly that the rules served him, not the other way around.

Nothing has really changed with 5.5e except for it to be clearer to all sides what the situation is.

 

[Voadam]

The 5e PHB also told players to check with the DM for changes and the rules gave the DM veto power, but there were still tons of players who felt that if it was in the PHB, they could just pick it. If the DM said no, he was big bad wrong funning them.

Putting it in the DMG makes it crystal clear that the backgrounds, which have a greater potential to fail to meet the DM's setting than feats, races, etc., are DM granted, rather than DM vetoed. It's better if the DM has to say yes for something to happen, rather than saying no to keep it from happening. There are fewer hard feelings that way.

I don't remember that being part of the 14 PH saying check with the DM for permission. The closest I can find is page 127 in the section on customizing backgrounds, if none of the sample background special features fit your concept then you work with the DM to come up with something.

"If you can't find a feature that matches your desired background, work with your DM to create one."

 

[Maxperson]

I don't remember that being part of the 14 PH saying check with the DM for permission. The closest I can find is page 127 in the section on customizing backgrounds, if none of the sample background special features fit your concept then you work with the DM to come up with something.

"If you can't find a feature that matches your desired background, work with your DM to create one."

Page 6

"Your DM might set the campaign on one of these worlds or on one that he or she created. Because there is so much diversity among the worlds of D&D, you should check with your DM about any house rules that will affect your play of the game. Ultimately, the Dungeon Master is the authority on the campaign and its setting, even if the setting is a published world."

 

[Maxperson]

I mean the tactics seemed reasonable to me. Everything focus fired and PCs apply probably the best weapon masteries for the situation. I can see other reasonable ways to do it but that seems reasonable.

Where did he say focus fire? All I see are percentages of PCs staying up. If the ogres focus their attacks, there's no way a PC stays up unless in the entire combat the two ogres only score a single hit.