WOTC undecided over OGL/GSL. Why you should care

[catsclaw]

Trying to post calm, non-sensational comments hasn't worked. In fact, it seems to have the opposite effect. This particular thread will die out soon, unless WOTC feeds it. Other threads may be opened on the subject, but without anything new from WOTC, they will just have the same old conjectures and will also die out.

The only reason this thread has traction is because Clark Peterson, easily the biggest booster 4e has among the independent gaming companies and friends with a lot of industry people both in and out of WotC, is worried. I wasn't concerned until Clark said he was. I think there are a lot of people here in the same boat.

If WotC thinks the best way of dealing with the problem is to pretend it doesn't exist, then their PR is worse than I thought. And if they're unwilling to say everything they discussed in the January GSL conference call is still true with the exception of the timing, I think there is good reason to be worried.

 

[xechnao]

If WotC thinks the best way of dealing with the problem is to pretend it doesn't exist, then their PR is worse than I thought.

What would you do in their place?

 

[catsclaw]

Paizo is taking the 3.5OGl, pumping up the base classes, creating more work to be able to continue using your 3.5 adventures and other books you already own. They're doing this b/c they don't feel the core classes match up to later released classes. If the alpha stays anything like it is now, it's not making anything easier on the buying customer.

So what? You're welcome to argue whether Paizo is making a smart move or a stupid move on a different thread; it's completely irrelevant to this one.

You should also know that a thread on the internet is not a representative portion of the customer base.

Really? And here I was basing my entire self-worth on Hot or Not.

You said you didn't know anyone who switched systems just because of an adventure. I pointed you to a whole thread-load of them. Clearly, there are some people who base their decisions on those kind of concerns.

 

[catsclaw]

What would you do in their place?

Assuming they're just mucking about with the terms of the GSL, I'd do exactly what I suggested above. Post on this thread that there is going to be a GSL, it's going to allow most publishers to do most of what they want, and WotC just isn't prepared to make more details public at this time.

Assuming they're actually thinking about scrapping the GSL, I'd stay completely quiet and hope whoever was in charge of the decision came to their senses.

 

[SSquirrel]

So what? You're welcome to argue whether Paizo is making a smart move or a stupid move on a different thread; it's completely irrelevant to this one.Really? And here I was basing my entire self-worth on Hot or Not.

You said you didn't know anyone who switched systems just because of an adventure. I pointed you to a whole thread-load of them. Clearly, there are some people who base their decisions on those kind of concerns.

I was disputing what you said about Paizo sticking to the 3.5 OGL, b/c that isn't entirely accurate. While pointing this out I showed why I feel it is a bad move.

Wonderful way of comparing 2 things that are completely different. You gave an example that I felt was highly unlikely, a group of people who had never played D&D seeing an adventure of Paizo and then jumping whole hog into D&D and Paizo material. Now you try linking to a thread of people who already play D&D and utilize Paizo's adventures and try to claim it's the same thing. Not buying it.

This thread you pointed to is current customers saying what they would or wouldn't do based on what Paizo does. Staying 3.5 instead of upgrading to 4E is not switching systems. It wouldn't be switching systems until the Pathfinder RPG is available in August 2009. So no, it doesn't support your argument in the least.

 

[catsclaw]

I was disputing what you said about Paizo sticking to the 3.5 OGL, b/c that isn't entirely accurate.

It is exactly what they are doing. They've already said the PRPG rules will be released under the OGL. What they haven't promised is that it will be completely compatible.

Wonderful way of comparing 2 things that are completely different.

You said:

In my experience it is exceedingly rare that someone who doesn't play a game system sees an adventure and is spurred to then have their entire group go out and spend about $70 from the description of this group. While it is possible a scenario like you describe could happen, I don't see it as all that likely.

I pointed you to an entire thread full of people who don't play a game system seeing an adventure and being spurred to then have their entire group go out and spending about $70. And you really can't argue above that Pathfinder RPG is radically different than the 3.5 ruleset, then turn around and argue my example doesn't work because 3.5 is so similar to the Pathfinder ruleset.

It wouldn't be switching systems until the Pathfinder RPG is available in August 2009. So no, it doesn't support your argument in the least.

The Pathfinder Alpha is available now, and people are playing it. The Pathfinder Beta will be available as a book and a free download by GenCon. And a good number of people have already preordered both the beta and the final version.

 

[SSquirrel]

It is exactly what they are doing. They've already said the PRPG rules will be released under the OGL. What they haven't promised is that it will be completely compatible.

Except where in the announcement and again in the alpha they speak about how important it is for them to be very compatible w/3.5?

You said:I pointed you to an entire thread full of people who don't play a game system seeing an adventure and being spurred to then have their entire group go out and spending about $70. And you really can't argue above that Pathfinder RPG is radically different than the 3.5 ruleset, then turn around and argue my example doesn't work because 3.5 is so similar to the Pathfinder ruleset.

Pathfinder is still 3.5 until August 2009, they aren't producing any adventure paths set in the new RPG until said new RPG is available on store shelves. Your example doesn't work b/c these people all ALREADY PLAY 3.5 and buy Paizo's products to use in their 3.5 game. That is so NOT the same as saying people who have never played D&D will see a Paizo adventure and then buy lots of books for both just so they can run that adventure.

The Pathfinder Alpha is available now, and people are playing it. The Pathfinder Beta will be available as a book and a free download by GenCon. And a good number of people have already preordered both the beta and the final version.

Yay, goodie for them. The official release date of the RPG isnt' until August 2009 and everything until then is a public Beta. People are already using what they know about 4E and running games with it, it doesnt' make me say that WotC has released 4E 3 months early. There is a year and a half between now and when the book actually gets released, so we'll have to wait and see how many of those pre-orders cancel b/c what changes in the alpha and beta stages of the PRPG doesn't appeal to them or they decide to just go 4E. Maybe everyone will keep their order and Paizo will gain lots of converts besides. Only time will tell.

 

[mxyzplk]

I can understand why you wouldn't. Nevertheless, it is in the publishers' best interests to convince the public to put pressure on WotC to release the GSL. It's great that you say you would never speak out against something for personal gain, but I don't know you personally, I live a commerical society, and the bad guys claim to be personally offended, too, in order to sell products or smooth over ruffled feathers. Sorry, but I'm going to take what you say with a grain of salt.

Seanchai

I'm sure that deeply, deeply concerns him.

 

[jefgorbach]

Some have suggested the recent events signal an end of open-licensing and thus third-party support for D&D. I disagree - for the sequence of events suggests we, the loyal customers, may have been blooded but won the adventure.

1) loyal customers have repeatedly reviewed every press-release, stressing their dislike for the majority of the proposed changes.

2) Paizo, listening to those customers, publicly affirms their commitment to continue supporting the existing rules indefinitely.

3) Within days, President/CEO Loren Greenwood who spearheaded the proposed revision steps aside a few scant months before seeing the final version of his pet-project reach market.

4) His replacement (Greg Leeds) "immediately" announces the open-license is being rewritten instead of released in April as announced several months ago.
​

Granted, I could be wrong but considering the final version should have already been “at the printer’s” as it were since it was on the verge of being released, any rethinking at this late stage signals a MAJOR change in the works – especially given the coincidental presidential change. Therefore its quite likely Hasbro’s Board noticed the division repeatedly failed to notice fan's reactions to the proposed changes and decided corrective actions was needed.

Hasbro invested far too much in acquiring the D&D brand to casually watch it be irrepairably harmed which is what fan feedback to the press-releases have implied WOULD happen if v4 was released as planned. Therefore it would not suprise me to hear the proposed schedule has been completely scrapped as the design team returns to the drawing board to ensure the end result is fully backwards per customer demand.

 

[catsclaw]

Except where in the announcement and again in the alpha they speak about how important it is for them to be very compatible w/3.5?

Earlier you were arguing about how dissimilar Pathfinder was from 3.5, and now you're arguing how similar they are? If you can't bother to keep your argument straight, I have no idea what you're doing trying to debate other people.

That is so NOT the same as saying people who have never played D&D will see a Paizo adventure and then buy lots of books for both just so they can run that adventure.

That's not what you were arguing before. I repeat, you said:

In my experience it is exceedingly rare that someone who doesn't play a game system sees an adventure and is spurred to then have their entire group go out and spend about $70 from the description of this group. While it is possible a scenario like you describe could happen, I don't see it as all that likely.

And I pointed out a scenario where exactly that happened. Exactly that. And now you're trying to argue it's not for sale so it doesn't count, or they're obviously lying on the thread and they won't switch, or you didn't mean "someone who doesn't play a game system" but "someone who doesn't play Dungeons and Dragons". Stop trying to pretend you were right. You were wrong.