WOTC undecided over OGL/GSL. Why you should care

[xechnao]

This was one of the main advantages of Dungeon & Dragon Magazines as well. They acted as a talent locating and training device, although at a slower rate than the OGL did given their format, IMO.

joe b.

And now they want to rise the rate even more with Gleemax. Plus make money. See? Gleemax is the new beneficial side of OGL to them.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Its crazy for me to think that an Open 4e may go the way of the dodo. Like Clark, working on Violet Dawn and on D&D is a hobby for me as well. If this is the case and 4e isn't open, there is no way we'll get a license or anything like that. We're so damn small that I'm pretty sure we wouldn't even show up as a blip on Wizard's radar.

If this does happen, we won't try and support 3.5 or create a new super cool 3.75 system. We'll throw in the towel and close our doors as a publisher and I'll just be Jeff the DM again. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it looks like its a very real possibility.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I think it's important to remember that Clark is not at all dependent on Necromancer or d20 for his income, or even a significant portion of his income. I think he's more spooked as a D&D fan, and, in the last eight years when people were fretting about all kinds of things, I haven't seen him spook at all really.

That's what makes us concerned.

I would like to reinforce this point. Clark is generally _the voice of reason_ on these forums. And he's a practicing lawyer too. I'm sometimes worried about things when he isn't, but I'm _always_ worried when he is.

Ken

 

[jgbrowning]

And now they want to rise the rate even more with Gleemax. Plus make money. See? Gleemax is the new beneficial side of OGL to them.

Possibly, but I doubt that talent farming had anything to do with the Gleemax decision. Gleemax is a social networking site, with all that entails. IMO, talent farming of any real effect rarely works without monetary compensation as a creative will only labor of love for so long. Were these same creative people provided compensation for their work they would have a longer period in which to hone their chops and become even better creatives.

But this is close to a threadjack so that's all I'll say about creative works in a paid vrs unpaid environment. I do think the OGL provided a feedback mechanism where those who were good at creating were spurred on to be even more creative and try even harder.

joe b.

 

[SSquirrel]

Look at it this way--say you have a group of gamers who are looking for a new game. One of them picks up Paizo's Rise of the Runelords, flips through it, and decides to run it. Now that drives sales of Paizo's products--at least 6 Pathfinder issues, maybe some Golarion products, maybe some minis, maybe a Harrow deck. And for Wizard of the Coast? Probably everybody picks up a Player's Handbook. The guy playing the Wizard wants more options, so he buys Complete Mage and the Spell Compendium. There's a woman who wants to play a Scout, so she buys Complete Adventurer. And someone else wants to play a kobold, so they pick up Races of the Dragon. Without Paizo, those sales don't happen. That drives down the profitability of Wizards. That means less products get produced, which means less products for you to choose from, even if you never personally buy a third-party product.

In my experience it is exceedingly rare that someone who doesn't play a game system sees an adventure and is spurred to then have their entire group go out and spend about $70 from the description of this group. While it is possible a scenario like you describe could happen, I don't see it as all that likely. Why would someone who has never played D&D before spend the extra money on Complete Adventurer or Races of the Dragon, etc? Maybe my friends are just a bit more cautious when they get into a new game system, but most folks I know would just pick up the PHB (if they even all bought it) and maybe the DM would pick up the XPH.

Yes OGL games can drive sales of WotC products, but I have never seen an adventure that made me buy into a game system as described above. I've bought game systems before simply b/c the concept was very cool and it had great art (I remember when I was a freshman in high school and RIFTS was released) and had lost of fun w/the game.

 

[xechnao]

Possibly, but I doubt that talent farming had anything to do with the Gleemax decision.

Gleemax and DDI have to do with everything. It is their overall new business plan or so it seems.

 

[Wolv0rine]

There are obviously three basic sides to this argument; those who don’t give a rat’s arse about the OGL and it’s implications, those who support the OGL for the varied additional content above and beyond what WotC publishes, and those who actually work in the OGL-created environment.

I fall into that third category. As an artist and part-time writer, I make what pathetically meager income I have from my work in the 3PP industry. I’d love to broaden my work experience with more publishers (maybe even WotC at some point), but Ralts keeps me buried under a lot of friggin’ work. Maybe once this GSL issue is resolved I’ll see if Orcus needs an artist for something sometime, I’m liking the cut of his chaff in this thread. But this is beside the point.

The point is that, while technically it is Wizards’ call whether or not to have an OGL/GSL at all, given that we HAVE an OGL already means that if they decide to not provide one for 4E they really are shooting themselves in the foot and all but guaranteeing a severe fracturing of the D&D game market, because those 3PP will then have no choice (unless they can afford to, or have contacts that allow them to, get special licenses to do books. And having worked with people who have gotten special permissions from WotC to do this or that in the past, even with a good working relationship with them it’s a slow and annoying process) but to revert back to the 3.5 OGL and adjust it to fit into what they would have otherwise done to support 4E – or ignore 4E entirely and branch off in a Pathfinder-esque manner.

And while I’m speaking ATM from my own personal concerns, not as an avid and life-long player, but as a freelancer in the industry, I for one can say that the possibility of an absent or gimped GSL scares the 5h!t out of me. I got into the RPG industry with the advent of 3E and the OGL, which was a dream of mine since I was 18 (some 18 years ago). The idea that the doors could close on that to any extent is highly disturbing in a way I cannot even form words for.

Personally, I think it’d be Damned nice if Rouse would pop up in here and give us SOMETHING.. even if it was liberally coated in NDA-speak, to give us something to work off of except fear and speculation. Given that we’re the #1 location for internet fan communication (and whatever anyone may think about “vocal minority”, that’s a HUGE thing), I think it’d be the ONLY smart move on his part to step in and say SOMETHING useful to us.

Mods: I know, I cursed at least twice. Given the emphatic strength of what I was trying to say, I didn’t think any faux-cursing or “granny-words” would suffice to carry the impact. I may not be a well-known poster, but I’ve been a poster since EN World first went live, I know the rules, and don’t do it often.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Does this mean you now resume your state of being a lawyer?

Ha ha ha!

 

[catsclaw]

In my experience it is exceedingly rare that someone who doesn't play a game system sees an adventure and is spurred to then have their entire group go out and spend about $70 from the description of this group. While it is possible a scenario like you describe could happen, I don't see it as all that likely.

If the only sale for WotC it drives is a single shared copy of the PHB, it's a net positive for WotC. It's money they wouldn't have seen otherwise.

More likely, the DM has run 3.5 D&D before. Maybe the whole group has. And they're trying to decide what to play for the next campaign--someone's arguing for Call of Cthulhu, someone else likes Exalted, and someone finds Rise of the Runelords and offers to run the campaign because they're really excited about it. That means people are going to keep playing D&D, and that means they're much more likely to buy WotC products.

And even if they never buy a Wizards of the Coast product at all, one of the things Ryan Dancey noticed about why RPG gamers leave the hobby is not because they grew bored, or couldn't find a system they liked. It's because they couldn't find anyone else to play with. To the extent the OGL helps maintain a healthy industry, it mitigates that problem. Sure, my group might break up, but if there's an Iron Heroes group starting up I can join that, and two years later when it breaks up maybe there's going to be a d20 game starting that I jump back into. The chance that I could come back and buy 3 or 4 Wizards of the Coast products is well worth the risk that I might buy a d20 product instead, today.

Yes OGL games can drive sales of WotC products, but I have never seen an adventure that made me buy into a game system as described above.

There's a thread on the Paizo boards where Eric Mona solicited the opinions of Paizo customers on whether they should switch to 4e or remain 3.5. Check it out. There's a lot of people swearing they'll never switch to 4e, and a smaller number saying they're switching and are going to stop playing 3.5 altogether. But there's a not insignificant percentage saying they'll switch if Paizo does.

Paizo's sticking to the 3.5 OGL, and all those potential 4e customers aren't switching.

 

[catsclaw]

Personally, I think it’d be Damned nice if Rouse would pop up in here and give us SOMETHING.. even if it was liberally coated in NDA-speak, to give us something to work off of except fear and speculation.

Really, all this thread needs is a WotC employee to drop by and say "Calm down everyone. There's is going to be a GSL, and while we're still nailing down the details and it is going to be more restrictive than the OGL, we're sure it's going to allow most people to do everything they want to with 4e."

It's possible they just haven't noticed this thread (it being the weekend), but I think the likelihood they haven't drops significantly with each passing day. And since they have reassured the community there will be a GSL in the past, at some point their silence becomes a de facto admission that it's now not certain.