WotC's forum "Iconics" discussion thread (or "goobye, Lidda")

[Doug McCrae]

D&D doesn't take place in a fantastic version of medieval Europe

Actually, I thought it did. Looking at Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Eberron, the central nations, which PCs are mostly expected to come from, seem to be analogues of medieval European nations, with fantasy versions of the Middle-East, the Orient, Africa and N. America on the fringes. OK, so Eberron's are fantasy medieval versions of 1920s/30s Europe, but it's still Europe. And they're not fooling me with the multiple hues, drow still represent the 'black savage' of the pulps.

The monsters are mostly from European folklore too, with a smattering from other cultures. Like the PCs are supposed to start in Europe, then venture further afield, or maybe encounter a wandering couatl or roc.

The monk at first looks out of place for Europe but he's ripped from the TV series Kung Fu, which was on in the early 70s, the time D&D was created. The monk's techniques are supposed to be exotic, stemming from the mysterious East.

 

[Klaus]

I really don't get how anybody finds Lidda attractive.

 

[Nifft]

She is not attractive. She is fun and cute. We could call this the pikachu effect. She's a 3e mascot.

Agree. Lidda is the only one who smiles on a regular basis.

If any of them could be considered "hot", it would be Vadania IMHO:

... but I could care less if she's re-done.

Lidda is love. Lidda is forever.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Klaus]

I said it on that thread and I'll say it here:

If they create new, Fourth Edition-specific iconics - and they should - then there's only one thing I want from them: ethnic diversity.

Y'mean, like the 3E Iconics, right?

Regdar (male human Fighter) - looks to be of Caucasian/African (specially evident in the Scourge of Worlds DVD).
Naull (female human wizard) - looks Asian (and no kimono is sight).
Kerwyn (male human Rogue) - looks Latino.
Mialee (female elf wizard) - black hair and tanned skin, almost Native American.
Vadania (female half-elf druid) - platinum blonde hair and pale skin.
Ember (female human monk) - looks African.
Jozan (male human cleric) - looks Caucasian.

and so on, and so forth.

The 3e Iconics were designed specifically to NOT have a clear ethnicity most of the times.

 

[Wormwood]

As I posted on the boards, 4e should have NEW iconics, and the 3e iconics should be 'promoted' to prestige class iconic status (presumably in the DMG)

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Actually, I thought it did. Looking at Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Eberron, the central nations, which PCs are mostly expected to come from, seem to be analogues of medieval European nations, with fantasy versions of the Middle-East, the Orient, Africa and N. America on the fringes. OK, so Eberron's are fantasy medieval versions of 1920s/30s Europe, but it's still Europe.

Perhaps, but - at least in Eberron, I'm not defending the typically Eurocentric nations of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms - the people are not supposed to be European in appearance. It is canon for Eberron - though the art doesn't show it as much as I would like - that the humans of Khorvaire came from every nation of Sarlona prior to the rise of Riedra, and every kind of "real world" human ethnicity is represented in every nation.

Jaela Daran, the spiritual leader of the Church of the Silver Flame, has "chocolate-coloured skin", for instance.

The monsters are mostly from European folklore too, with a smattering from other cultures. Like the PCs are supposed to start in Europe, then venture further afield, or maybe encounter a wandering couatl or roc.

Well now, are we talking the game as Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson played it in 1974, or the game we play in 2007? The vast majority of monsters found in D&D supplements in the modern era are original to the game or, at the most, based on other non-folkloric sources.

Now, of course, many of these monsters aren't used as much as the "classics" like vampires, minotaurs, and dragons, who have "traction" derived from their folkloric heritage, but right from the start in the mid-Seventies there's been a healthy leavening of original monsters who are as popular as the folkloric creatures: beholders, illithids, et cetera. To be honest, even when we consider our folkloric creatures, the majority of them bear little resemblance to the original stories after thirty years of adaptation to the needs and settings of the game itself.

This is my point: in 2008, the D&D game will be thirty-four years removed from the medieval European fantasy wargames that gave birth to it. There's no reason to pretend that "D&Dland" is basically "fantasy Europe with the serial numbers filed off", and I hope that Wizards of the Coast recognises this by giving us some non-European people in the artwork for the game.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Regdar (male human Fighter) - looks to be of Caucasian/African (specially evident in the Scourge of Worlds DVD).

I've read the original suggestion that Regdar have no specific ethnicity (and I applaud that idea very much), but that's not how he was drawn by most artists. I don't know about Scourge of Worlds.

Naull (female human wizard) - looks Asian (and no kimono is sight).

She doesn't look Asian to me. She has a very British skin tone and reminds me of certain small-featured English women I've known.

Kerwyn (male human Rogue) - looks Latino.

Or Italian. Or French. Or German.

Also, Naull and Kerwyn barely count as iconics, let's be honest.

Mialee (female elf wizard) - black hair and tanned skin, almost Native American.

I already kind of gave you this one.

Vadania (female half-elf druid) - platinum blonde hair and pale skin.
Jozan (male human cleric) - looks Caucasian.

Alhandra. Gimble. Devis. Hennet. Tordek. Eberk. Et cetera.

It also goes beyond the iconics. In all of the ilustrations of characters in the core rules, how many are non-European? How many of the human-seeming creatures (fey, for instance) in the Monster Manual are nonwhite? They have two sets of illustrations for the planetouched (aasimar and tiefling) between the 3.0 and 3.5 versions, and all four are white.

 

[frankthedm]

She can hang out with Emirikol the Chaotic and that dude on the 2e PHB who had a hernia.

Looked more like he had door-busting BO.

 

[Blackthorne]

I hate Lidda with a passion, so if she disappears, 4E would finally become interesting to me.

That said, Regdar´s gotta stay. Because, admit it, Regdar is better than you!

 

[green slime]

I think DnD needs vastly more ethnic diversity. Apparently, after 30 years, the gaming community has proven that it is incapable of moving forward on this issue fast enough. Therefore, it shouldn't be up to the player to choose. You roll on a chart to decide your ethnicity. Roll on another one to see what your features look like (shape, placement and colour of ears, nose, eyes, mouth, eyebrows, wrinkles, moles, blemishes, birthmarks, hairline, and hair). Even other physical features could be included.

Then we could introduce spells and magical effects that permanently alter these appearances, much akin to plastic surgery today. Think of the supplement sales you could achieve!

"The Book of Dying": Now you can have blue hair! W00t!