WOTC's research on gaming groups

[incognito]

Nah, can do it in many fewer levels if you are willing to multiclass.
Fighter 2 / Cleric 2 / Ranger 1 / Barbarian 2

What's horrifying is that this is a pretty viable 7th level Character. Yes, the reflex save is off, but the Charactrer has uncanny dodge, rage, fast move, +2 feats, ambi-dex, TWF, track. A horrifying Fort save.

Start as rangers for a great initial skills list, then barbarian for 2 levels, then the levels of cleric, then the levels of fighter.

At 8th level I'd go cleric again (and maybe cleric ever more?), but this is exactly the type of cheese I'd expect from a player trying to qualify for a PrC and beginning play at a level higher than 1.

BY the way - screw it - forget about the reflex save - this PC should have enough HP to take the damage. Drop a higher stat into CON.

 

[Spatula]

Re: Re: high level feats & Dwarven Defenders

One of the screwy features of multiclassing is the way the saving throws are computed. You are much better off on your strong saving throws if you multiclass with another class that has the same strong saving throws.

...and potentially much worse off with your weak saves...

But aside from the high-Fort save feats, MOTW also has high-BAB feats (+15, +12). And you can't get past those prereqs with multiclassing.

 

[Spatula]

One trick Pony? Great saves, Great AC, Damage Reduction, Fighter BAB. d12 HD type. Oh, and Spot as a class skill. YOu need only be a Lawful Dwarf, Not a Fighter. So far I have had no less than three submisisons using a cleric/fighter Rouge/Cleric/Fighter mix that were pretty horrifying.

So change the prerequisites for your campaign. If it's loaded down with combat feat prereqs, for example, the character will need to take a lot of fighter levels in order to qualify.

I don't see a problem with a fighter/cleric becoming a dwarven defender. Doing this means you won't be able to take the PrC ASAP (you'll have to wait until at least 8th level), and the character won't be as good a fighter as a character that didn't multiclass (less fighter feats, slightly less BAB and HP).

The fighter/rogue/cleric would make a poor dwarven defender, as it happens. You don't get much for the rogue levels except for a little sneak attack and a lack of hit points. The straight fighter DD will have a better BAB, more hit points, and be at least 2 levels further into the PrC at the same character level as the F/R/C.

For Arcance Archer, the Feat Pre-reqs are a Joke - they are all things you would take anyway!

But the level(s) of wizard is not something the character would have taken (and it's essentially wasted since the class does not advance spellcasting). Not all PrCs need to have sup-optimal feat choices as prereqs.

And getting the Strong reflex save - what's the resoning there?

Elves are nimble?

 

[Endur]

Re: .

All of the DMG prestige classes seem very balanced.

Some of the MOTW prestige classes are way over-powered.

The Elemental Savant (Tome + Blood) is far more powerful than any of the DMG prestige classes. Darkvision, immune to sleep, paralysis, and stunning, immunity to one energy type, +3 DC to spells (stacks with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus), +3 Caster Level for Spell Resistance Checks (stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration).

And for all this, what do they give up? Their 10th level in the PrC doesn't grant +1 caster level. And they have to have the Energy Subsitution feat and 8 ranks in Knowledge planes. And, if they were a wizard, they don't get the bonus wizard feats and their familiar doesn't increase its abilities.

This PrC is far more powerful than the Loremaster or Dwarven Defender or Shadow Dancer PrCs from the DMG.

If your PC is an evoker-blaster type that favors one element, Elemental Savant is an automatic choice for a PrC.

Tom

I am very wary of allowing characters to attain Prestige Classes.

The only one I have had luck with (as a DM, an as a co-player) so far is the Elementalist - probably becasue energy resistance is easy to come by, so it really is for flavor.

The Shadow Dancer, and the Dwarven Defender were a power gaming nightmare.

 

[jdavis]

All of this sounds like the same old song and dance to me, we all can come up with different combinations to max out a particular score. If somebody in a game I was running tried to make a Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Ranger 1/Barbarian 2; I'd tell him he was nuts (not my style of play), I mean explain how you would be a fighter a ranger and a barbarian at the same time in game terms, oh and then you are going to be a cleric on top of that? If the players like to game like that then that is great, the DM can adjust the monsters too (and the DM can always out adjust the players and keep the fights competitive). The same goes with prestige classes, if they are being used to add flavor to the game and make characters special well that is fine, and if they are used to power game then that is fine if it is what the campaign is all about. The prestige classes don't make the characters too powerful the players do, you can make a Dwarven Defender who is pathetic just as easy as one who is super powerful. If there is a problem with a DM wanting to run a role playing campaign but the players only want to make powerful min/max characters then the problem is not with the rules or the characters the problem is a difference in game expectations between the people playing, you cannot fault power gamers for wanting to power game.

 

[Endur]

Dwarven Defender prestige class

Its a Dwarven prestige class, remember?

Dwarves are supposed to be resistant to magic and hard to control.

Especially Dwarven Champions, which is what the Dwarven Defender prestige class is all about.

So, yes, there should be a good will save for Dwarven Defenders.

If anything, it probably should have been stronger. DDs should have gotten something similar to the Holy Liberator's immunity to enchantments/charms/compulsion spells.

Don't underestimate how crippling the DD feat chain pre-reqs can be. Especially in a point-buy envirornment. I built my DD up from 1st level and it was very painful for a long time. He'll never have the offensive firepower of a fighter/barbarian type.

My 9th level Dwarven Defender/Fighter/Paladin has the following feats: Close Quarters Fighting, Dodge, Endurance, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness. Three are pre-reqs. CQF is almost a necessity because of improved grab monsters. Which meant I had one discretionary feat, and I chose Lightning Reflexes because of a desire to avoid pit traps.

Compare that to a 9th level Dwaven Fighter who has 9 feats. The 9th level fighter can have several feat chains already finished. Or a 6th level Paladin/3rd level Fighter would have 6 feats, but again wouldn't have to spend any on Endurance and Tougness, so at least one feat chain would be finished.

The real cost of the DD class is that you don't have finished feat chains. Especially if you were not a pure fighter before going into DD.

Tom

The fighter did not take Iron Will until L3. He took Weapon Focus, and Dodge as his L1 feats. (And yes, for level 3, he was higher than the Mage. The point is, Fighters have bonus feats, and many fighters invest in Iron will - this fighter based PrC class gives them a strong will save without too much cause IMO.

 

[incognito]

Endur: And to end that class's effectiveness, I present the spell: Protection from elements.

Spatula:

Elves are nimble?

What is that? So elf wizard's should have a strong reflex save too?

Taking a PrC class one level later (or even two levels later) to end up with a PC with healing ability, evasion, sneak attack, good saves, good AC, etc, etc, etc. is what a Mary Sue is all about. Being 'good' at everything.

Will a straight fighter be able to use a wand of cure critical wounds? Will a straight fighter be able to take NO damage from a fireball? How about tumble or move silent, etc, etc, etc. See? Good at everything. All it takes is four levels of fighter to get weapon spec. all it takes is three levels of Rouge to get the evasion/uncanny dodge business. Clerical domain powers (as we all know) are not created equal, some scale, some are good right off the bat.

Taking the Dwarven Defender does cost feats - which is good! If it did not, we would not be having this discussion, it would simply BE broken.

What I am saying (over, and over, and over, it seems) is that designing a charcter to take a prestige class, and starting from Level N, where N is close to the level the need to satisy the requirements or A PrC is cheaty. And that **some** PrCs are cheaty period.

Although the player has to deal with some possible sub-optimal feats, or skills (although maybe not in the case of our Buddy the Arcane Archer), if you create a character around the PrCs powers, then it is easy to become a Mary Sue.

Let's see how many Lawful dwarves who start at L1 end up DD's

 

[incognito]

My 9th level Dwarven Defender/Fighter/Paladin has the following feats

Endur: this explains a lot. So, I assume you went 4 fighter and 4 paladin? Maybe not because you are missing a feat.


Here is a proposed build for a DD/Fighter/Paladin (6 feats)

Weapon Foc, Weapon Spec, Dodge, Toughness, Endurance, Power Attack (cleave @ L9 with L1 of DD).

I did not have to take Iron Will as a feat, because the PrC grants it. I do not have to take blindsight, because the PrC grants uncanny dodge at L2 (you want to see HP fall, watch a L5+ Rouge go to work). So really, I've wasted for feats is 1 Endurace. Which I agree, is a completely wasted feat.

Aside: I don't have to wear plate mail (which slows dwarves down), because I have a good dex (at least 13, I'm guessing 14), and I have the Bonus AC from DD.

...oh, and SPOT as a class skill. And Sense Motive to offset Bluff attempts.

 

[jdavis]

What I am saying (over, and over, and over, it seems) is that designing a charcter to take a prestige class, and starting from Level N, where N is close to the level the need to satisy the requirements or A PrC is cheaty. And that **some** PrCs are cheaty period.

I haven't looked at all PrC's most of the ones I have looked at are no more over the top than what can be done with some creative multiclassing. It sounds like you have a problem with players who try to make powerful characters but that is just part of the game. The people I game with rarely use prestige classes and tend not to multiclass, it all seems sort of silly to them, we have one person who self handicaps his characters for role playing purposes to the point where he is almost useless, he likes it that was, it's more of a challenge. People who go through all the effort to gain a prestige class in order to make a powerful character are wanting a powerful character, they are not cheating they just want to power game, that is a style problem not a rule problem. If the whole party wishes to have over the top high powered characters then I doubt they are looking for a role playing intensive session, they are looking for a good fight. Power gamers want to power game and role players want to say they are cheating or bending the rules, but they aren't they are just after a different experience from the game. I get no enjoyment out of making a monster unstoppable character because I have DM'd enough to know that there is no such thing as a unstoppable character. Alot of people enjoy making over the top characters though, they like to game that way and that is their perogative. The problem comes when you mix people who wish to role play and people who want to power game.

 

[Spatula]

Taking a PrC class one level later (or even two levels later) to end up with a PC with healing ability, evasion, sneak attack, good saves, good AC, etc, etc, etc. is what a Mary Sue is all about. Being 'good' at everything.

Except that such a character wouldn't be good at everything, it'd be more like a jack of all trades, master of none. Evasion can't be used unless you're wearing light armor or no armor. The healing ability of a 1st level cleric is next to useless past 5th level. The really good clerical domain powers are dependant on the character's cleric levels. 2 dice of sneak doesn't mean much when you can't move in combat to re-position yourself for flanking. About the only benefit a DD would get from rogue levels is a possible leg-up on its Defensive Awareness abilities, and the character sacrifices a lot for that. Such a character has ridiculous saves, but really isn't good for much of anything else. It certainly wouldn't be a very good frontline fighter. And that's what multiclassing is all about - tradeoffs.

I agree that difficult feat choices are not so difficult if you're creating the character at higher levels. But characters still only get a handful of feats, so being forced to take suboptimal feats still hurts the character's overall effectiveness, even if the player doesn't have to actually play through those painful beginning levels.