WOTC's research on gaming groups

[incognito]

I can agree that power gamers muticlass often. I can concede that PrC are partially an extension of that.

However, the core classes were designed such that there were holes in every calss (fighter's can't heal, wizard's low HP, etc)

What I find PrCs do is change those limits. Esp with regard to strong saves, BAB, and skills lists.

AA, and DD both have Spot on their class list. Why? Are tehy mroe spotty than Bards or Barbarians?

The healing ability of a 1st level cleric is next to useless past 5th level. The really good clerical domain powers are dependant on the character's cleric levels.

Is Luck a good clerical domain? How about Destrcution (+4 to hit)War? Magic? Trickery? Even Travel for 2 rounds is not too shabby. For the healing ability, all it takes is L1 as a cleric to use a Wand of Cure Critical, thats 4d8+7, or 25 avg pts. Your average 14 CON fighter has L9 fighter has but 72 HP. This is more than 1/3 of that. Seems like a good deal to me...

 

[drnuncheon]

If somebody in a game I was running tried to make a Fighter 2/Cleric 2/Ranger 1/Barbarian 2; I'd tell him he was nuts (not my style of play), I mean explain how you would be a fighter a ranger and a barbarian at the same time in game terms, oh and then you are going to be a cleric on top of that?

Sure, no problem.

Cremm was born into a nomadic tribe on the eastern edge of the Empire - one of the horse clans that regularly raided the borders, carrying off women and livestock. His own mother was one such captive, and his halfbreed status caused him much trouble with the full-blooded nomads over the years. Nevertheless, he grew mighty in a fight, on horse or on food, with a battle-rage that was a terrible thing to behold.

He raided Imperial settlements with his people for many months, gaining in prowess and fame - until the day when his people clashed with orcish raiders. The foul humanoids were driven back, but not before nearly smashing the tribe - a job which the Imperial legions were all too eager to finish. They took Cremm away in chains. He was thrown in the arena, to die for the enjoyment of the masses.

But he did not. In his first fight, he slew the two gladiators sent against him. In his second, he was able to defeat a captured ogre. His popularity grew, and an owner of a gladiatorial stable purchased him.

There, he was trained to greater finesse in the arts of the fight. He learned the flashy moves that would please the crowd - and the ones that would keep him alive, even in the light armor he was given. He fought in the arena for months, unaware of events in the word outside, but all the while his desire to avenge his tribemates grew.

But trouble had been brewing. The edges of the Empire were crumbling under the advance of the orcish hordes to the north. The governor sent forth a call for troops to defend the city: the gladiators were drafted.

Because of his wilderness skill, Cremm was chosen as a scout, operating deep in the occupied territory. It did not take him long to learn that these orcs were the same ones his tribe had clashed with before, and he studied them well, coming to know their strengths and weaknesses better than his own. The Empire was too large of a target for his vengeance, but these orcs would do nicely.

Meeting a band of stalwart adventurers, Cremm joined forces with them for a time to harass and strike at the orcs. Among their number was one Diarmuid, a priest dedicated to the fearsome war-goddess known as Morrigu. He saw in Cremm the seeds of greatness, and did his best to convert the warrior to his own faith. The lessons worked far better than he expected - as the barbarian began to dedicate his kills to Morrigu, she in turn began to answer his prayers.


So, there you have it. A 7th level character with a logical history that explains why he's a Brb2/Ftr2/Rng1/Clr2. Obviously, I had to make up a lot of world background since we weren't discussing any one in particular, but the base concepts are not exactly uncommon.

J

 

[incognito]

So, there you have it. A 7th level character with a logical history that explains why he's a Brb2/Ftr2/Rng1/Clr2

And he's cool! Get 'em Cremm!

 

[Spatula]

Is Luck a good clerical domain? How about Destrcution (+4 to hit)War? Magic? Trickery? Even Travel for 2 rounds is not too shabby. For the healing ability, all it takes is L1 as a cleric to use a Wand of Cure Critical, thats 4d8+7, or 25 avg pts. Your average 14 CON fighter has L9 fighter has but 72 HP. This is more than 1/3 of that. Seems like a good deal to me...

Luck and War are probably the best domains for a F/C that doesn't intend to advance as a cleric. That assumes that such an option is open to Lawful clerics in the campaign world. But hey, everyone knows that clerics are the most powerful core class. That doesn't have anything to do with PrCs.

Wand of Cure Critical costs 21000. If a player wants to pick up a level of cleric and lay out that kind of cash to have limited healing abilities, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The pure fighter will spend that money on items that enable him to be a better warrior, like say a +4 Belt of Strength (16000) and still have plenty of change left over. Eventually the wand will run out of charges and the pure fighter will still have his belt and still be better in melee.

Tradeoffs.

AA, and DD both have Spot on their class list. Why? Are tehy mroe spotty than Bards or Barbarians?

AA - yes, they're eagle-eyed archers. DD - well to be honest I don't know why they get Spot and Listen. But they only get 2 skill points per level so it's not like they'll be able to pump those skills up all that high.

 

[DDK]

Re: Re: high level feats & Dwarven Defenders

One of the screwy features of multiclassing is the way the saving throws are computed. You are much better off on your strong saving throws if you multiclass with another class that has the same strong saving throws.

Yes! I hate this and have seriously considered altering the initial favoured save of EVERY class to a +1 instead of +2. Makes far more sense and doesn't shake things up too much whilst fixing the problem.

All of the DMG prestige classes seem very balanced.

Well, I don't know about that but I do know that I've always felt that the Assassin PrC is the most balanced and reasonable PrC out there and I tend to use it as a yard-stick.

 

[jdavis]

Sure, no problem.

Cremm was born into a nomadic tribe on the eastern edge of the Empire - one of the horse clans that regularly raided the borders, carrying off women and livestock. His own mother was one such captive, and his halfbreed status caused him much trouble with the full-blooded nomads over the years. Nevertheless, he grew mighty in a fight, on horse or on food, with a battle-rage that was a terrible thing to behold.

He raided Imperial settlements with his people for many months, gaining in prowess and fame - until the day when his people clashed with orcish raiders. The foul humanoids were driven back, but not before nearly smashing the tribe - a job which the Imperial legions were all too eager to finish. They took Cremm away in chains. He was thrown in the arena, to die for the enjoyment of the masses.

But he did not. In his first fight, he slew the two gladiators sent against him. In his second, he was able to defeat a captured ogre. His popularity grew, and an owner of a gladiatorial stable purchased him.

There, he was trained to greater finesse in the arts of the fight. He learned the flashy moves that would please the crowd - and the ones that would keep him alive, even in the light armor he was given. He fought in the arena for months, unaware of events in the word outside, but all the while his desire to avenge his tribemates grew.

But trouble had been brewing. The edges of the Empire were crumbling under the advance of the orcish hordes to the north. The governor sent forth a call for troops to defend the city: the gladiators were drafted.

Because of his wilderness skill, Cremm was chosen as a scout, operating deep in the occupied territory. It did not take him long to learn that these orcs were the same ones his tribe had clashed with before, and he studied them well, coming to know their strengths and weaknesses better than his own. The Empire was too large of a target for his vengeance, but these orcs would do nicely.

Meeting a band of stalwart adventurers, Cremm joined forces with them for a time to harass and strike at the orcs. Among their number was one Diarmuid, a priest dedicated to the fearsome war-goddess known as Morrigu. He saw in Cremm the seeds of greatness, and did his best to convert the warrior to his own faith. The lessons worked far better than he expected - as the barbarian began to dedicate his kills to Morrigu, she in turn began to answer his prayers.


So, there you have it. A 7th level character with a logical history that explains why he's a Brb2/Ftr2/Rng1/Clr2. Obviously, I had to make up a lot of world background since we weren't discussing any one in particular, but the base concepts are not exactly uncommon.

J

If you put that much thought into a character then you are probably not doing it just to get better saves or crazy attacks, that is a perfectly logical role playing solution, still seems a little cumbersome to me but you did explain a history that works, congratulations you sold me on that one.There would be alot of role playing involved in your character (who seems slightly confused and looking for direction in his life) of course to go much higher you are going to start hitting experience point problems.

 

[teitan]

The average campaign length was about 12 months.

Sounds about right for all of mine, except for my first one, which was about 4 years and 36 levels. My current campaign is at 6 months and they are 7th level, so I estimate around another 8 months, were I to keep going, it woulf be 14th level, I am XP scroogy. As it is we are taking a break of about 4-5 months so I can get my bearings and be a player for the first time in 2 years.

Jason

 

[hong]

If you put that much thought into a character then you are probably not doing it just to get better saves or crazy attacks, that is a perfectly logical role playing solution, still seems a little cumbersome to me but you did explain a history that works, congratulations you sold me on that one.There would be alot of role playing involved in your character (who seems slightly confused and looking for direction in his life) of course to go much higher you are going to start hitting experience point problems.

Hee hee. Nockermensch said it best of all:


=== REPOST ===
From: nockermensch@hotmail.com (Nockermensch)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: 90% of Munchkinism, Loopholes and Broken Rules...
Date: 23 Dec 2002 03:18:58 -0800

Tin Coyote <tincoyote@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<i0d90vc576mqteoep3d5se3h4loasfb51l@4ax.com>...
>
> Many players don't actually think about how appropriate or
> inappropriate any given ability or class change is. They simply add
> the numbers and decide. If players came to me with the arguments that
> Loren and Wayne have, I become more inclined to listen, because it's
> not purely mechanistic.
>
> TC

Hint: It *IS* purely mechinistic. You were deceived by the oldest
powergamer's DM-trap.

See, we powergamers work at a deeper level. We want to play powerful
combat machines, so we add numbers. AFTER we have a veritable monster
created, we then make a game rationale for such behemot. Most
non-powergaming DMs think we're using "roleplaying" arguments when
we're in fact adapting the character story around a killer concept.
For a real example, I bet that our group wasn't the only one who saw a
misterious disappearance of two longsword wielding elves in the
AD&D->3E transition.

Pfft, some people never understand D&D - it's all about the damage.

@ @ Nockermen5ch, or about DC.

=== END REPOST ===

 

[hong]

What's horrifying is that this is a pretty viable 7th level Character. Yes, the reflex save is off, but the Charactrer has uncanny dodge,

Which is nice.

rage,

Once per day. Not that great.

fast move,

Which is nice, but everyone else will either have fly, or the boots of standard equipment.

+2 feats,

Which is crappy, compared to the single-class fighter.

ambi-dex, TWF,

Which is very crappy unless you have lots of rogue levels, or energy enchantments on both weapons (which in turn costs moola).

track.

Useless 90% of the time.

A horrifying Fort save.

Which makes up for the equally horrifying Ref save.

BY the way - screw it - forget about the reflex save - this PC should have enough HP to take the damage. Drop a higher stat into CON.

Have you actually DMed any adventures past 12th level or so? Most high-level monsters can toy around with melee tanks. It doesn't matter how many hit points you have.

 

[Endur]

Well, yes, the Dwarf still has to wear plate armor. The extra movement from light armor isn't worth it.

DD has to have a dex 13+ (pre-req dodge feat). Assuming point buy build, that means a Dex 14. At 9th level, maybe you have gloves of dex +2 for dex of 16.

If you are wearing a chain shirt, your ac is 4 + 3 dex = +7 + magical bonus.

If you are wearing dwarven plate, your ac is 8 + 3 dex = 11 + magical bonus.

So, the optimal Dwarven Defender wears Dwarven Plate (mithril). Second best armor for a Dwarven Defender would be Adamtine plate.

With regards to being slowed down, you don't worry about that. As a DD, you aren't going to be moving anyways.

Yes, DD's are supposed to be Dwarven Sentries, so they get spot, listen, and sense motive, but you are probably only getting 1 skill point per level. With regards to spot and sense motive, gee whiz, its really cool to have them on the skill list, but you aren't going to have any skill points to buy ranks, most likely. Point Buy Environment, most fighter types have int 8, especially since the tank needs high str, high con, and dex 14. So with int 8, you get 1 skill point per level. Does it really matter where they go?


Oh, I wouldn't be counting on the Cleave chain or the Spring Attack chain of feats, either. Since your dwarf isn't moving far, if at all, Spring Attack + Mobility are useless. Likewise, since you aren't moving, you can't count on being able to cleave through multiple opponents since you have to rely on all the opponents coming to you.

The Bonus AC from DD is really nice, but some of the higher level monsters are very tough. Last weekend, my 9th level DD was bit for 54 points of damage (in one bite ) from a Dragon. The high AC didn't seem to stop the Dragon's huge attack bonus. Imagine what the Dragons are like that a 17th level DD must fight? The AC and DR of the high level DD will really be inconsequential against the major monsters.

Tom

Aside: I don't have to wear plate mail (which slows dwarves down), because I have a good dex (at least 13, I'm guessing 14), and I have the Bonus AC from DD.

...oh, and SPOT as a class skill. And Sense Motive to offset Bluff attempts.