WOTC's research on gaming groups

[buzz]

Re: .

I am very wary of allowing characters to attain Prestige Classes. While wonderful in concept, they typically allow Characters to become "Mary Janes" (a term used for a character that is good at everything).

-PEDANT ALERT-

It's "Mary Sue," actually. "Mary Jane" is either Spiderman's girlfriend or a certain illegal herb.

 

[Psion]

Re: Re: .

It's "Mary Sue," actually. "Mary Jane" is either Spiderman's girlfriend or a certain illegal herb.

I was sort of wondering about that. I had heard Mary Sue before, but in reference to a badly written Fanfic character (or Elminster. )

 

[buzz]

Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty Mary Sue...

I was sort of wondering about that. I had heard Mary Sue before, but in reference to a badly written Fanfic character (or Elminster. )

Right. Essentially, a Mary Sue is a character the author uses to project themselves into the story and inflate their ego. A Mary Sue is always favored by fate and pretty much excells at anything that comes up in the course of the story.

ST:TNG's Wesley Crusher is a good example of a Mary Sue (Wesley was Roddenberry's middle name, iirc).

 

[Psion]

Re: Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty Mary Sue...

Right. Essentially, a Mary Sue is a character the author uses to project themselves into the story and inflate their ego. A Mary Sue is always favored by fate and pretty much excells at anything that comes up in the course of the story.

No, that's not universally true. A Mary Sue character is the master of all OR the master of none who sucks at everything but gets the sympathies on important characters anyways.

The Mary Sue anethema has many facets.

 

[incognito]

(snort)

She must be a Prc of some sort...

Sorry for the error, though

 

[buzz]

Re: Re: Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty Mary Sue...

The Mary Sue anethema has many facets.

As usual, Psion, you are a font of wisdom.

(Aside: I probably would never have bought Dark*Matter if it weren't for your extensive Alternity review over at RPG.net. Since I've already hijacked the thread, I'll take the opportunity to quickly say thanks. )

 

[Psion]

Re: Re: Re: Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty Mary Sue...

(Aside: I probably would never have bought Dark*Matter if it weren't for your extensive Alternity review over at RPG.net. Since I've already hijacked the thread, I'll take the opportunity to quickly say thanks. )

Cool. Someone who doesn't hate me for recommending Alternity.

 

[drnuncheon]

drnuncheon: He does not have better stats over all - they have the same (point buy) stats.

Then in two cases (stats and feats) he's given up extra effectiveness in his area of specialty to focus on his Will save.

I still don't think it's a problem. In fact, I think it's great that he's able to do that.

J

 

[hong]

The fighter did not take Iron Will until L3. He took Weapon Focus, and Dodge as his L1 feats. (And yes, for level 3, he was higher than the Mage. The point is, Fighters have bonus feats, and many fighters invest in Iron will - this fighter based PrC class gives them a strong will save without too much cause IMO.

ITYM "without too much cost". Don't forget he had to take Toughness and Endurance to get that strong Will save. That's two feats which are almost useless in gameplay for tank types, so the opportunity cost is significant.

And as said before, the DD is still not that great because their signature ability -- the defensive stance -- can be downright dangerous when fighting uber monsters (dragons, demons, etc). Yes, you get an AC bonus, but this often means the monster just needs a 3 to hit instead of 1. Often these monsters can dish out just as much damage as the DD, and can take more of it in return, so staying around to soak damage is unwise.

What the DD does is make the tank role a slightly more attractive proposition than it would be otherwise. Since I think tanks got teh shaft in high-level 3E, this is fine (one of the possible objectives for PrCs is to make what would normally be suboptimal niches more attractive).

 

[DDK]

PC: If you saw a class in the PHB that was so good, that 6 of 8 characters took mutliple levels in in, would it raise your eyebrows with regard to that class's balance?

Personally, the way I judge the 'balance' of a PrC/feat/spell/etc. is by asking myself, "Is there any reason NOT to take this?

If it's a tough choice between this or that, then IMO, it's balanced. PrC's are meant to be slightly more powerful in certain instances, due to their specialization and the cost attributed to gaining them; that is the primary benefit of taking them, over just another regular class. However if it's a no-brainer, like for instance the Templar who gets a fighter BAB, specialization, spells, d10 and bonus feats plus a unique and exceptionally powerful ability (Mettle), well... that goes in the garbage.

To my mind, there are far too many PrC's. Every mother and her dog has created one. That doesn't mean they're all bad and I'm not implying that people who make them are stupid or lame or whatever else you want to interpret as negative in this paragraph. However it does make the DM's job a LOT more difficult when he has to sift through a dozen PrC's presented to him by his players, especially when the player has spent his OWN time drooling over it and imagining his character having it. It makes it all the more harder to say no. Better, IMO, to simply not allow ANY PrC's by player choice so that when one is OFFERED to a player, due to what their character has achieved in game, it is a bonus and a surprise and a reward for good roleplaying.

The fact that the current situation effectively puts the decision in the players hands, unless the DM is strict and doesn't allow players to choose their PrC's, means that the DM's job is just that much more difficult than it already is in 3rd ed, a rules heavy system.