WOTC's research on gaming groups

[Piratecat]

Guys, I'll say this one last time. Let the argument drop. It doesn't matter who insulted whom, or if there even was an insult; stop discussing it, please. Dr. Nuncheon, I figured that was the case, but let's end it here.

And Hong? As it turns out, "spiff/spliff" spam isn't all that much more useful than your signature "wanger" spam. Who could've guessed?

Thanks, folk. Keep the thread on topic (high lvl character development choices and/or WotC's demographics study).

 

[incognito]

Psion: to Answer the below question(s) - let me apologize in advance for my stream-of-consciousness typeos.

I have yet to see this happen in any game I have run. I have one PrC character in my current longterm campaign (now at 18th level).

How so? I'm just not seeing it for any reasonably designed prestige class.

The shadow dancer allows one to hide in plain sight if there are shadows as a move-equivalent action. Sneak attack, every attack. With haste, I can get off a full attack! See invisibility, True seeing, or other spells do not help locate the hider. Blindsight or tremorsense can help. But the point is: Sneak attack all the time is a problem.

Dwarven Defenders damage reduction, strong will save, AC bonus and uncanny dodge made fighters or paladins pretty ugly.
Consider: You can have a Dwarf Fighter who has a better will save than a straight wizard, AND a fighter BAB, AND bonus abilities - and for the PrC's level's 1-6 the abilities come pretty fast.

The other broken ones I have seen played: Holy Liberator, Hospalitier, Arcane Trickster, Alieniest (Player took only two levels of Alienist), and The "hated enemy" PC from Ranger, Druid, Barbarian splat book.

By themselves, with proper introduction into the world, and careful restriction of the applicant's who wish to attain the class, PrC can add value to the game.

Letting characters add them because they fufill the pre-reqs often can disturb the balance of player to player effectiveness.

Hmmmm..I will qualify my stance on PrCs. If you start from L1, and make the feat/skill sacrifices needed to accomplish some PrCs (like Dwarven Defender), then at least there was some Risk vs. Reward. When you have players generate new characters at higher levels (becasue you think it is unfair for a new character to come in at L1 with a 6 level party), the improbable feat chains and skills really leave a abd taste in your mouth.

 

[Eben]

I think this is a great thread. It sums up a lot of my feelings towards high-level play and the use of prestige classes.

As a DM, I like to cee PrC as something special, tailored into my campaign world. Some can be rather well -known (knightly orders, mageguilds, ...) others more arcane (certain fields of magical study, secret organizations, ...)

As to the first type, anybody should be able to strive for acceptance. Getting accepted should, imo, be a matter of roleplaying rather than cecking if the numbers add up. As to the second type, in all honesty: the most interesting and fun, these should be more of a DM toy. These should be story-driven more than a players choice.

So far for the theory. In reality, players want toys. And in an RPG those are the choices you get to make. And who am I to deny my friends this? It's supposed to be fun for everyone.
But on the other hand, I don't want my campaign world to become this baroque society in which every other individual is member of some top-secret organization or master in some obscure yet powerful field of study or... You get the picture. I like things to stay coherent.

A lot of my ambivalent feelings toward this are being externalized by the different posters. I'm interested how this thread will develop further. (if at all.)

 

[Psion]

The shadow dancer allows one to hide in plain sight if there are shadows as a move-equivalent action. Sneak attack, every attack. With haste, I can get off a full attack!

Issue 1: When I said "how so", I was referring to the "Mary Jane" comment. That's powerful, but that's not "do everything," so does not address my question. The shadowdancer is a specialist: it can hide real well. But it also has fewer skill ranks, lacks sneak attack progression, and so forth. It certainly cannot do everything.

That said, I don't think the shadowdancer is as strong as you make it out to be. First off, a shadowdancer does not have continued sneak attack progression, and unlike true invisibility can be spotted using spot skill. No magic needed.

Second, all hide in plain sight does is forego the bluff check for distraction. If you are doing anything that a theif could not use with a bluff check, you are being too generous.

Third, the hide in plain sight ability does not make you invisible. You must be within ten feet of some sort of shadows to hide. There are many situations in which this does not apply. You proclaim that a true seeing spell doesn't help. Little consequence if much lower level spells like light are sufficient to prevent hiding.

Finally, haste allows a lot of things... whirlwind attacks following a move, for example.

It sounds to me like you have let your players seriously twink out on you.

 

[drnuncheon]

The shadow dancer allows one to hide in plain sight if there are shadows as a move-equivalent action. Sneak attack, every attack. With haste, I can get off a full attack! See invisibility, True seeing, or other spells do not help locate the hider. Blindsight or tremorsense can help. But the point is: Sneak attack all the time is a problem.

Actually, according to reports from the designers, they balanced the rogue figuring that he would be able to get sneak attacks most if not all of the time. As one of them (I think Monte?) said, given flanking, invisibility, and all the other ways you can rob someone of their dex bonus, it's just not that hard to make a sneak attack.

Plus, there's a fairly sizable number of monsters that aren't affected: undead, constructs, elementals, plants, oozes, anything that's too big for you to reach the vitals on...hide in shadows all you want against the lich, it won't help you do more damage.

Dwarven Defenders damage reduction, strong will save, AC bonus and uncanny dodge made fighters or paladins pretty ugly.
Consider: You can have a Dwarf Fighter who has a better will save than a straight wizard, AND a fighter BAB, AND bonus abilities - and for the PrC's level's 1-6 the abilities come pretty fast.

Hmm. Ftr10/DD10 has a Will save of +10. Wiz20 has a Will save of +12. What am I missing? If he's in his defensive stance, he still only equals the wizard, not surpassing him.

Plus, the DD's got to take three substandard feat choices to get into the class. Dodge normally isn't substandard because it leads up the Mobility chain, but the mobility chain doesn't work well with the DD's class abilities. Endurance rarely comes into play in most games that I've seen. And Toughness as a feat choice for a fighter is simply absurd (unless you're getting something else out of it, like entry into a PrC.)

EDIT: Psion mentions: "First off, a shadowdancer does not have continued sneak attack progression, and unlike true invisibility can be spotted using spot skill. No magic needed."

Actually, a Spot DC 20 check lets you become aware of an active invisible creature (although it's DC40 to pinpoint it enough for an attack). One character in my campaign manages to roll 20+ fairly regularly. (Elven ftr/rog with the Blooded feat, for a total bonus of +sick.)

J

 

[incognito]

It sounds to me like you have let your players seriously twink out on you.

And I won't even take offsence at that jibe

Shadow Dancer did not Mary Jane as bad as Dwarven Defender did. However, a spring atacking, spiked chain weilding (for comabt reflexes), Fighter/Rogue Human loved the darkvision, and the hide in plain sight, and the continued progression in uncanny dodge.

Bluff cannot be used to assist a hide if a character is under direct observation. Spot is only a class skill for rangers and Rogues. WRT your argument that Spot is defeated by invisibility:

from the SRD
A Spot check result of greater than 20 can generally let the character become aware of an invisible creature near the character (though the character can't actually see it).

But I don't want this to eb a rules argument over a specific prestige class - what I am saying is that IN GENERAL, players use them to become Mary-Janes (fighter's able to heal without giving up BAB, etc.)

 

[incognito]

drnuncheon: A) Love the Legoman!

B)

Hmm. Ftr10/DD10 has a Will save of +10. Wiz20 has a Will save of +12

you must admit it is a big shift, at least, than Ftr 20 (+6 will save).

And while strictly speaking you are correct, in plays due to how Fighters vs Wizards adjucate thier abilities and feats (iron will, specifically) the parties fighter with a 12 WIS, and IRON will, has a better will save than the party wizard with a WIS of 10, and no Iron will. This is a +3 shift, at level 9 when the fighter first announced he wanted his next level to be DD, his will save was +3, ajusted as above was +6, wizards was +6 (so, ok, you say even).

Next level his save went up 2, the wizards went up 1 - he surpassed the wizard, then he went up again at L11 in his Will Save.

Oh, and got DEX bonus to AC (no more sneak attack from invisibles, or flat footeds!), and defensive stance. Which can work quite well.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Possible PrC Fix

I was thinking about a way to address the (supposed) problem of characters multiclassing into a PrC just to get the PrC's front-loaded abilities.

[house rule] As DM, I could Rule 0 things so that in order for a character to get the PrC's benefits, he must remain in that PrC for its entire sequence. So, just like the paladin core class, if you leave the class, you lose the abilities. In other words, if your wizard takes 2 level of Alienist and then multiclasses into something else... bye bye Alienist abilities. However if the wizard stays with Alienist through its 10th level, he may then multiclass into something else. [/house rule]

 

[drnuncheon]

drnuncheon: A) Love the Legoman!

Legoman? That's Lego me!

Well, Lego Me before the shave-and-a-haircut. I really ought to update it.

And while strictly speaking you are correct, in plays due to how Fighters vs Wizards adjucate thier abilities and feats (iron will, specifically) the parties fighter with a 12 WIS, and IRON will, has a better will save than the party wizard with a WIS of 10, and no Iron will. This is a +3 shift, at level 9 when the fighter first announced he wanted his next level to be DD, his will save was +3, ajusted as above was +6, wizards was +6 (so, ok, you say even).

I don't get this. The fighter in your example has better stats than the wizard and has chosen to spend a feat raising his will save - why is it a bad thing that he can now compete with the wizard?

If he took Iron Will at first level, he'd be beating the wizard then too (+3 vs. the wizard's +2), and he'd be even or ahead of the wizard all the way through until 8th level, just leveling as a fighter. Given that, I don't really see this as a problem with the Dwarven Defender - you're just seeing the results of stats and feat choices that focus on increasing the Will save.

J

 

[incognito]

drnuncheon: He does not have better stats over all - they have the same (point buy) stats.

The Fighter went for a 12 WIS over a 12 INT, while the Mage went for a high CON, DEX and INT.

The fighter did not take Iron Will until L3. He took Weapon Focus, and Dodge as his L1 feats. (And yes, for level 3, he was higher than the Mage. The point is, Fighters have bonus feats, and many fighters invest in Iron will - this fighter based PrC class gives them a strong will save without too much cause IMO.


Why not give the shadow dancer a Stong will save?