D&D 4E Would 4E be Popular?

[Rasyr]

That a whole community standardized on a single house system can be consiered "spintered" is self-contradictory.

Actually, it is two, very similar, but different systems. There are differences may not be too large, but they are there, and it is enough that a character from one system cannot be used for the other without some minor conversions.

This makes them very compatible, but does not make them a "single" system, otherwise you would only need on SRD.

 

[buzz]

Actually, it is two, very similar, but different systems.

Similar enough that you can use proiducts for one pretty much interchangably with the other. "Very similar" is an understatement.

The point I was really trying to make is that citing a list of d20 games that are 90% identical (some of which not even published by WotC) as evidence that WotC is "splintering the fanbase" the way TSR did is akin to claiming SJG splinters their fanbase every time they release a GURPS supplement.

WotC is almost solely focused on creating D&D product. The d20M release schedule is glacial, and the SWd20 schedule even more than that. Up until Eberron was released, they essentially supported *one* campaign setting, i.e., FR (Greyhawk is the RPGA's job now). The majority of their products are campaign-neutral and of use in any D&D game. All of their games share a house system. The OGL gives other publishers incentive to support (and thus propagate) this house system. Even the D&D minis game is essentially an RPG accessory that happens to contain skirmish rules.

Ergo, I find the claim of similarity to TSR in the '90s ---and the image of fractious players staunchly refusing to aknowledge any d20 variant but their own--- really silly.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

as much as 4ed is Hackmaster.

Following your constant posting to the fact about Hackmaster, then Castles and Crusades IS 5E

 

[Dark Jezter]

So I ask the ENWorld hordes: What is 4E going to have to do to either get you to buy it and to smooth over relations with the gamers that aren't going to look upon 4E with anything other than anger?

Dude, these are gamers you're talking about. Gamers on a whole tend to be a petulant, hard-to-please lot. 4E could be the greatest gaming system ever created, and still people would complain about how there are too many spikes and tattoos in the artwork or how the newest incarnation of the ranger class dosen't fit their image of what a ranger should be.

 

[buzz]

Sure, there appears to be more cross-pollinization among the various sub-systems and settings, but there is still a sizable number of players that stick to one D20 ruleset or the other.

What subsystems and settings? The only setting WotC has been supporting, up unitl Eberron's release less than a year ago, is FR. How do two settings (with no known plans for more settings on the holrizon) compare to the 10+ TSR was pushing? How does WotC's conservative release schedule of (on avreage) one D&D product a month compare to TSR's constant avalance of products? D20M has been out for, what, two-and-a-half years now and we've seen four supplements. Four.

There's a sizeable number of players that stick to one non-d20 ruleset or another as well. Gamers have preferences. Claiming that WotC is somehow splintering anything is, IMO, unfounded. We're all playing essentially the same system.

Look at the RPGs you listed; they're *all* d20. Take any player of one game and drop them in another, and they can hit the ground running.

Turn the clock back a few years and make a similar list: AD&D2e and its 10+ settings, Alternity, Marvel SAGA, Dragonlance SAGA, Amazing Engine, Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and Top Secret S.I. Now tell me which incarnation is/was splitting up its fanbase.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In order for 4e to work for me, it would need good campaign support--and it would need to be better than 3e.

When 3e came out, I'd been unsatisfied with 2e for a while. I took one look at it and, immediately thought: "Wow, fighters are interesting now, and greatswords are worth using. I think I'll make a fighter with a greatsword." The next thing I noticed was "Wow! Humans are worth playing." Overall, it was nice to see D&D become a system where the crunch was at least compatible with the fluff (pictures, etc) that had been supporting it. 4e would have to be either incremental or that kind of an experience in order for it to be worth it to me.

 

[Kanegrundar]

Like it or not since WotC went with the Open Gaming Lisence, 3E is bigger than just D&D. Changing over to 4E, and (possibly) not being compatible with all the various systems, like AU, that use 3E as a base would alienate alot of people that while are technically playing 3E and buy 3E material, still don't play straight D&D.

Just take a look around the boards and you'll see the factioning going on. There are a lot of people that state what version of 3E they are playing. Do you really think that they would do that if they were making wide use of both versions? I doubt it. That suggests sub-systems of 3E to me and that suggests and fractioning of the marketshare. Those people that stuck with 3.0 and didn't buy 3.5 are not likely to pick up 4.0. After all, they didn't change over the last time, so they wouldn't be any more likely to now. Plus, there are many people that don't play anything other than D20 Modern, or any one of the other OGL games like Grim Tales or EQ, but still use D&D material to supplement their games in those other 3E-based sub-systems.

Sure the OGL allows other publishers to propogate the D20 system, but several are creating their own versions that have, at times, limited portability into mainstream D&D or D20 Modern.

The idea that just because all these games are D20 and that they are (somewhat) compatible doesn't mean that people are finding a sub-system that they like and saying to heck with the rest. That's just being blind.

Kane

 

[Kanegrundar]

Dude, these are gamers you're talking about. Gamers on a whole tend to be a petulant, hard-to-please lot. 4E could be the greatest gaming system ever created, and still people would complain about how there are too many spikes and tattoos in the artwork or how the newest incarnation of the ranger class dosen't fit their image of what a ranger should be.

True, but there are many others that didn't complain with the advent of 3.0 and even 3.5 that are worried sick about WotC busting in with a new edition that invalidates the material that came before. Complaining about artwork and such is one thing, changing the system for nothing more than a money grab is another thing entirely.

Kane

 

[KenM]

When WOTC said they were coming out with 3.0, I was happy, 2nd edtion was out for about 10 years and the system really needed streamlining. I was happy with 3.0.
IMO, they put out 3.5 way too early, 3.0 was only out for 3 years, and in the past, there were more time between edtions. 3.0 did not need revision, IMO.
Also, IMO, 3.5 is not at all compatable with 3.0, they changed too much (hit dice of some classes, spell duration, ect..) I'm seeing a very distubing pattern with WOTC, if they try to put out a new edtion of DnD in 2006, i'm done.
I won't be happy unless 2010 is when we see 4.0. Too soon otherwise.
I have it on very good authorithy that the 3.5 revsion was driven buy the penny pinchers at WOTC to make people buy new core books to make extra money.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

True, but there are many others that didn't complain with the advent of 3.0 and even 3.5 that are worried sick about WotC busting in with a new edition that invalidates the material that came before. Complaining about artwork and such is one thing, changing the system for nothing more than a money grab is another thing entirely.

Kane

And yet, there is no evidence WHAT SO EVER that 4e is coming any time soon other than general doomsaying of gamers. Dark Jezter's right, gamers ARE petulant and hard to please. Even when Charles Ryan publically states that we will be told about 4e a year or even two years before its actually released, people still don't believe him.

We're gamers. We complain. We moan. We get angry about pointlessly stupid things. And we're damn proud of it.