Would Paizo Make a Better Steward for Our Hobby?

[GreyLord]

This. Paizo do what they do very well. Produce a long series of pretty good adventure paths with superb production values that are very enjoyable to read and fun to play. I do not in any way intend to denigrate what they do here - and they probably do it better than anyone else in the history of the hobby. They are deservedly the most successful new RPG company since White Wolf by doing what they do very well. On the other hand they produce only one game. That there is an ongoing edition war is a pretty clear indication that different people want different things out of RPGs.

And when I point out that this isn't the only skill needed I get accused of sour grapes when my take is the more playstyles supported the better. Paizo only supports one game and have shown neither inclination nor ability to do more than that so far as I am aware (and there is absolutely no reason they should have to). And "The steward of our hobby" needs to be trying to help as many as possible - a completely different approach to Paizo's 3.5 Thrives.

(And I'm not replying to Jason Bulmahn unless he actually says he wants a critique; I'm pretty sure he doesn't here).

Actually, just FYI,

PAIZO supports more than one game currently.

This is a copy and paste job of the RPG's that Paizo is currently trying to sell from their store...quick look at least

13th Age (1)
Aberrant (5)
After the Bomb (6)
AGE System (6)
All Flesh Must Be Eaten (17)
Alternity (3)
Amazing Engine (5)
Angel (3)
Ars Magica (90)
Atlas Games, White Wolf Publishing
Babylon 5 (7)
Basic Roleplaying (BRP) (13)
Beyond the Supernatural (5)
Big Eyes, Small Mouth (2)
Blackmoor (5)
Blue Rose (OGL) (3)
Buffy The Vampire Slayer (5)
Burning Wheel (7)
Call of Cthulu
Cartoon Action Hour (1)
Castles & Crusades (OGL) (78)
Champions (104)
Colonial Gothic (12)
Conan (OGL) (4)
Conspiracy X (5)
Corporation (7)
Cyberpunk (3)
Dark Ages (17)
Deryni (Fudge/OGL) (3)
Desolation RPG (2)
Dragonlance (13)
Dragonmech (OGL) (7)
Dungeon Crawl Classics (DCC)
Dungeon Crawl Classics (OGL) (57)
Earthdawn (17)
Engel (OGL) (2)
EverQuest (1)
Exalted (54)
Fantasia
Fantasy Hero (17)
Fate of the Norns (5)
Fate RPG (3)
Feng Shui
Fortune's Fool (3)
Freeport (4)
GameMastery™ Compleat Encounters (7)
GURPS
Glorantha
Full Metal Fantasy (7)
HackMaster (7)
HARP
Hero Kids (8)
HERO System (233)
Heroes Unlimited (13)
HârnMaster (62)
Imperium RPG (7)
In Nomine (1)
Infinite Power RPG (3)
Invulnerable RPG (7)
Iron Kingdoms (13)
Ironclaw (4)
Judge Dredd (d20)
Labyrinth Lord (1E)
Legend of the Five Rings (15)
Lone Wolf (OGL) (14)
Lord of the Rings (1)
Mage: The Awakening (22)
A Magical Society (d20/OGL) (9)
Marvel Universe (1)
Masterwork Maps (3)
Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes (5)
Metal, Magic & Lore (12)
Midnight (d20)
Mind's Eye Theatre (2)
Momentum System (1)
Monster Geographica (d20) (5)
Munchkin (d20) (1)
The Mutant Epoch (5)
Mutant's and Masterminds
Nightbane (5)
Ninja Hero (6)
Numenera (4)
Palladium Fantasy (18)
Paranoia (12)
QAGS (41
Recon
Red Dwarf
Rifts
Rune
Rune Quest
Savage Worlds
Serenity (6)
Shadow, Sword & Spell (4)
Shadowrun (98)
Catalyst, FanPro, FASA
SLA Industries (11)
Space: 1889 (17)
Spacemaster (8)
Spycraft (OGL) (6)
Star Hero (6)
Star Quest (8)
Star Wars (d20) (6)
Starship Troopers (5)
Stormbringer (4)
Swords and Wizardry
Talislanta (1)
Tephra (1)
Thieves' World (d20) (1)
Thousand Suns
Toon (2)
Traveller
Trinity
True 20
Unknown Armies (11)
Untold (8)
Vampire: The Requiem (33)
Victoriana (14)
Villains & Vigilantes (
Wars (OGL) (1)
Werewolf: The Forsaken (13)
WitchCraft (4)
World of Darkness
Xcrawl (d20)

So...just a wee bit more than just their own game that they support or show support for.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Actually, just FYI,

PAIZO supports more than one game currently.
...
So...just a wee bit more than just their own game that they support or show support for.

You mean that Paizo acts as an online FLGS? Yeah, not the same thing.

 

[gamerprinter]

In a general sense, they don't. But, in the context of how a company would do as the steward of the hobby, you are about to answer your own question...



The thing is... the world changes. Players change. Our understanding of good game design changes. If Paizo were to be the "steward", they'd eventually need to embrace change. What's good for right now is fine, but right now eventually becomes the past.

So, then there's two choices - continue as the steward by cribbing from others who use the OGL or a similar license, or create their own. They cannot depend on someone else creating a game good enough to crib from again in the future, so they would only guarantee their future as stewards by being able to create their own.

I'm just discussing my preferences, not whether Paizo or anyone should be the steward of the game - I have no opinion regarding that. I'm justing pointing out that I have no particular loyalties to WotC, any more than any other company. I would probably still be playing 2e, even with TSR being dead and if nobody saved the game for continual publication. I don't require some commercial entity to serve as a "steward". When I switched to 3x, I wasn't doing so to get an improved game, rather our old gaming group doubled in size and one of the new people owned 100 or so 3x and 3x 3PP books. We switched to utilize the books not for a need for new game, rather to accomodate a new player. So I really don't ever need a new edition to play RPGs.

It was only my desire to publish material in addition to already doing map commissions for publishers, that I went to Pathfinder in the first place - not for the need for a new game. Pathfinder is just where I joined the industry, so for that reason alone, it's my current game of choice.

 

[DaveMage]

You mean that Paizo acts as an online FLGS? Yeah, not the same thing.

Actually, it is the same (if not better). Paizo has a vested interest in *every* game doing well. Name one other RPG company that can make that claim.

 

[Wicht]

You mean that Paizo acts as an online FLGS? Yeah, not the same thing.

You still haven't answered my original question. Can you please explain what you meant by"Paizo has based much of its appeal on a deliberate rejection of other parts of the hobby." What parts of the hobby?

 

[Neonchameleon]

You still haven't answered my original question. Can you please explain what you meant by Paizo not supporting part of the hobby? What part?

Anyone who gives a damn about balance for starters. Or wants anything other than a tweaked 3.5 experience. Which makes sense because their initial advertising campaign was "3.5 Thrives" - i.e. "We will give you more of the same". They set themselves up in opposition to the changes made by 4e.

I don't blame them for this. They had the opportunity to take and they took it spectacularly successfully. And appealing to those who didn't want certain things was part of that. They built their foundations on the edition war. And as I say, good luck to them and they did well out of it. I certainly don't begrudge people enjoying their game.

And other than a shopfront they've given nothing in their ruleset to anyone who likes rules to encourage roleplaying, narrativist style. There's another chunk they haven't supported. And I know of nothing they've really done for the OSR.

The core fact is Paizo only have a single game, and it's a game that was developed by employees of Wizards of the Coast in the late 90s and tweaked in the early 00s. The only people they support with their games are those who like that game with minor modifications.

Who exactly do you think other than 3.5/PF fans do you think they have been supporting? Other than by providing a shopfront? (And if that's important, turn everything over to Drivethru - after all they sell all editions of D&D and​ Pathfinder)

 

[Jester David]

Paizo as far as I know has never developed an RPG of its own - Pathfinder is tweaked 3.5.
Paizo has based much of its appeal on a deliberate rejection of other parts of the hobby.

True. But they've never needed to design a system before.

Paizo has little care for mechanics.

*Spitake*
What?!?
Okay, they run playtests annually to make sure their hardcover rulebooks have extra solid systems. Just because 3e has some pretty big mechanical flaws doesn't mean they don't care for mechanics.
Yes, they could have made further changes between 3e and Pathfinder. But they were limited on time and the initial desire to make things backwards compatible. Backwards compatibility seemed more huge back then, but hindsight is what it is.

The closest thing to their own RPG Paizo has (the excellent Pathfinder Beginner Box) they adamantly refuse to support (they claim there isn't a market); Paizo have made a play for one large subset of customers and utterly ignore the rest. Which is the exact opposite to the position a steward needs to take.

There's a market, but there isn't a market equal to their current market sitting around waiting. Two competing product lines is a huge financial mistake. How huge? It drove TSR out of buisness huge. The Beginner Box is what it is, an easy and simpler way to get into the main Pathfinder game.

The thing is... the world changes. Players change. Our understanding of good game design changes. If Paizo were to be the "steward", they'd eventually need to embrace change. What's good for right now is fine, but right now eventually becomes the past.

So, then there's two choices - continue as the steward by cribbing from others who use the OGL or a similar license, or create their own. They cannot depend on someone else creating a game good enough to crib from again in the future, so they would only guarantee their future as stewards by being able to create their own.

This. Paizo do what they do very well. Produce a long series of pretty good adventure paths with superb production values that are very enjoyable to read and fun to play. I do not in any way intend to denigrate what they do here - and they probably do it better than anyone else in the history of the hobby. They are deservedly the most successful new RPG company since White Wolf by doing what they do very well. On the other hand they produce only one game. That there is an ongoing edition war is a pretty clear indication that different people want different things out of RPGs.

Paizo hasn't made a full RPG because they don't have to. But they've made numerous large subsystems such as mass combat, kingdom building, and Mythic. They certainly have the design chops to design an RPG.

Here's the thing, Paizo isn't a person. It's a company. It's a company made up of talented designers. And, funny enough, many of those designers worked for WotC. If they really wanted, I'm sure they could hire more WotC allumni with game design experience (as WotC keeps laying them off). But they have some people on staff (or who regularly freelance) who helped design 3e and/or 4e. Oh, and one person who designed Basic.
So they're not lacking in experience.
Oh... plus the CEO of Paizo helped with the design and/or testing of Ars Magica, Vampire: the Masquerade, Magic: the Gathering and was at WotC during the design of 3e.

Paizo only supports one game and have shown neither inclination nor ability to do more than that so far as I am aware (and there is absolutely no reason they should have to). And "The steward of our hobby" needs to be trying to help as many as possible - a completely different approach to Paizo's 3.5 Thrives.

And how many RPG games does WotC support? One as well. Although they tweak it occasionally with licence and other IP, but it's still the same game.

 

[billd91]

You still haven't answered my original question. Can you please explain what you meant by"Paizo has based much of its appeal on a deliberate rejection of other parts of the hobby." What parts of the hobby?

Certainly not the fiction considering they're publishing quite a few things with their Planet Stories product line.

And then there are the board games they're publishing with Titanic Games and James Ernest like Kill Doctor Lucky, Falling, and Yetisburg.

And that's not even getting into the game products that are sufficiently generic they can be used with many games like their flip mats.

And that's without even mentioning the way they promote other products on their website for all the Pathfinder players to see.

…. So what parts of the hobby are they rejecting again?

 

[n00bdragon]

You know who would be a better steward for the D&D game? The people who run Magic: the Gathering. Seriously. Kick the game across the hall.

 

[Jester David]

Anyone who gives a damn about balance for starters.

There's balance and then there's Balance. Pathfinder, like 3e, ofted for lesser balance but it didn't push balance to the forefront. And, really, making drastic, sweeping changes to the game just for the sake of balance would have run contrary to their design goal: stay true to 3e.

Or wants anything other than a tweaked 3.5 experience. Which makes sense because their initial advertising campaign was "3.5 Thrives" - i.e. "We will give you more of the same". They set themselves up in opposition to the changes made by 4e.

They saw a potential audience: people who were happy with the game system they currently had and did not want to make a switch. So they opted to make a game and products for that audience.
That makes them poor stewards for the hobby? Giving an audience exactly what it wanted?
They didn't set themselves up to oppose the changes made by 4e. Paizo didn't expect Pathfinder to become the opposition, let alone a replacement. They were hoping for "not a colossal failure". They weren't opposed to the changes so much as just wanted to tell adventures and needed a system that wasn't out of print for those adventures.

I don't blame them for this. They had the opportunity to take and they took it spectacularly successfully. And appealing to those who didn't want certain things was part of that. They built their foundations on the edition war. And as I say, good luck to them and they did well out of it. I certainly don't begrudge people enjoying their game.

I wouldn't say they "built their foundation on the edition war". That's a bit much since no one at time had any idea the 3e/4e split would be as nasty as it was. They simply expected some holdouts, because a 100% conversion rate is unheard of, and decided to make their niche catering to that audience. They haven't done anything to further the edition war or sabotage WotC or 4e.

And other than a shopfront they've given nothing in their ruleset to anyone who likes rules to encourage roleplaying, narrativist style. There's another chunk they haven't supported. And I know of nothing they've really done for the OSR.

The lack of story manipulation rules is an oversight. But, then again, even WotC hasn't done much with that (outside of vague overtones in Legends & Lore). It's certainly worthy of a book.
OSR is hard to support with Pathfinder without producing a second line.

The core fact is Paizo only have a single game, and it's a game that was developed by employees of Wizards of the Coast in the late 90s and tweaked in the early 00s.

I don't see the relevance of this statement.
And in the late '90s WotC was that company that only had a single game that was a card game.
And in the late '70s TSR was that company that only had a single game that was a miniature war game.

It's not like there were many people at WotC during the design of 4e who had a lot of hands-on experience with the design of 3e or other games.

The only people they support with their games are those who like that game with minor modifications.

And some players who skipped 3e.
And players who just want to play (with groups that prefer PF).
And likely some players of other RPGs who just don't like WotC.
And new players.

Who exactly do you think other than 3.5/PF fans do you think they have been supporting? Other than by providing a shopfront? (And if that's important, turn everything over to Drivethru - after all they sell all editions of D&D and​ Pathfinder)

Again, new players. It started out as 3e fans but since then it has grown. Pathfinder is finding a whole new audience who have never played an RPG. Who have never played any edition of Dungeons & Dragons.
Really, at the start of 4e, who was WotC supporting ​other than D&D fans who didn't like 3e?