Would this be unbalancing?

[Moe Ronalds]

I'm thinking of allowing monks in my campaign to fight with Shurikens and use their unarmed damage instead of the 1 pt of damage a shuriken normally does. The drawback is that they can only do this if they throw one shuriken at a time because that's the only way they can get the necessary force and accuracy needed for the attack. What I'm wondering is if this could potentially make monks too powerful. Feedback?

 

[Capellan]

Are you also planning to allow them to use the unarmed attacks routine (ie 1 attack per 3 BAB instead of 5), or just the damage? I have assumed the latter below. The former would make this ability considerably more powerful.

Another question to consider is small monks ... their hand to hand damage is lower than that of medium-sized monks. What damage do you intend them to do with shuriken? It seems unreasonable to give them reduced damage. I've assumed below that everyone gets the 'full' medium-sized damage.

At low levels, a single shuriken will do d6 damage instead of 1 point. Given that they are throwing only one per attack instead of three, that's average damage of 3.5 instead of 3. No big deal.

At 4th level the we're looking at 4.5 vs 3. and by 16th we're looking at 10.5 vs 3. So a Monk with Shuriken would be three and a half times as dangerous as anyone else with the same BAB. That's a pretty significant boost in comparative sense, but that's not the whole story.

Let's consider a Monk with Composite Longbow proficiency (maybe they're an Elf, or maybe they just took the feat). This Monk would probably be inflicting in the order of D8+4 points of damage per attack (assuming an 18 strength and a mighty weapon - certainly not unlikely at that level). That's an average 8.5 points of damage per hit, not including any magical bonuses the bow or arrows might have. It would also be possible to inflict this damage at far greater range than the shuriken can be used, and has a better critical (x3, rather than x2).

So the short answer is that it is probably OK from a game balance point of view ... and might help the monk retain a distinctive missile style all of their own. I can't see any obvious reasons not to give it a try, though you might like to develop an explanation as to why shuriken (and only shuriken) enjoy this advantage - your PCs are likely to ask why doesn't it apply for thrown daggers, for instance.

 

[Moe Ronalds]

Just the damage, not the BaB. Small monks do as much damage with the shurikens as medium sized monks do. And large monks do as much damage as medium sized monks do (my reasoning is the bigger they get the stronger they get but the less accurate they get as well, so it all balances out.) As for why only the shuriken gets this advantage and not say daggers or anything is because of the almighty power of an arbitrary ruling. Other than that, I think anything bigger than a shuriken would be a little too large and bulky to do this properly with.

I probably should add, the reason I considered this in the first place is because in movies and whatnot ninja-type characters can do devestating things with shurikens that would exceed three points of damage.

 

[Capellan]

Just the damage, not the BaB. Small monks do as much damage with the shurikens as medium sized monks do. And large monks do as much damage as medium sized monks do (my reasoning is the bigger they get the stronger they get but the less accurate they get as well, so it all balances out.) As for why only the shuriken gets this advantage and not say daggers or anything is because of the almighty power of an arbitrary ruling. Other than that, I think anything bigger than a shuriken would be a little too large and bulky to do this properly with.

I probably should add, the reason I considered this in the first place is because in movies and whatnot ninja-type characters can do devestating things with shurikens that would exceed three points of damage.

I'd figured that ninja (either in movies or comic books) had something to do with the house rule

Given your clarifications above, I'd say go ahead with using it. I can't see any reason why it would be unbalancing. Of course, actual play may turn up something I haven't thought of

 

[Thain]

Hmm...

Interesting idea, and something I think I'll steal...

 

[SylverFlame]

Maybe a PrC?

I really like the idea of a monk with ranged combat, but it is different enough from the iconic character that it would make a good prestige class.

For instance, a particular Monistary or Do-jo practices the art of the "long hand" where they suppliment ranged attacks with their ki . It makes sense if you've experienced a person pushing you over at five feet, or blowing out a candle from across the room. Yes I have seen this and no I'm not fibbing.

Even if the PrC is only 5 levels it makes it distinct and exotic. Not all monks can do this and so the PC is more special than monks already are. The PC could also be the founder of this style and set up his/her own school to train the knowledge it has found.

 

[Nifft]

Re: Maybe a PrC?

I really like the idea of a monk with ranged combat, but it is different enough from the iconic character that it would make a good prestige class.

For instance, a particular Monistary or Do-jo practices the art of the "long hand" where they suppliment ranged attacks with their ki . It makes sense if you've experienced a person pushing you over at five feet, or blowing out a candle from across the room. Yes I have seen this and no I'm not fibbing.

Ooo, I like...

Order of the Long Hand (OLH)

Requirements:
- Alignment: Any Lawful
- Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Expertise, Deflect Arrows
- Skills: Concentration (5 ranks), Balance (5 ranks)

Benefits:
- BAB: as Monk (3/4)
- HD: d6
- Good Saves: All
- Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod
- Class Skills: Profession(any), Craft(any), Balance, Tumble, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Search, Listen, Concentration ... any others?

Granted Abilities by Level
1) Long Palm, Wide Palm
2) Projected Blade
3) Long Foot
4) Projected Foot and Palm
5) Projected Fist

Long Palm: (Su) The character can project force from his palm. As a full round action, the character may project [Concentration ranks + Wisdom modifier] x5 pounds of force 5 feet in any direction.

Wide Palm: (Ex) The character may deflect up to 2 arrows per round, and an additional two per level of OLH.

Projected Blade: (Ex) The character may throw small weapons shuruken at the character's favored Unarmed Attack progression (if the character has any Monk levels), and each does the character's base Unarmed Attack damage. The character may only throw one weapon per attack (even if using shuriken, which normally allow 3 per attack).

Long Foot: (Su) The character can project his Ki as solid, focused rays of force. As a standard action, the character may make a trip or bullrush up to 10 feet away from himself without provoking an automatic attack of opportunity.

Projected Foot and Palm: (Su) The character can project his Ki into a blunt instrument. He can attack at his normal base attack, doing 1d6 subdual damage (with no bonus from strength). Additionally, the character can quickly project his Ki. The character now threatens a 10 foot range, but the only actions the character can take at 10 foot range are Trip and Subdual (Projected Palm).

Projected Fist: (Su) The character has focused his Ki to such an extent that he can make unarmed attacks at a distance. Treat the character as though he had a 10 foot reach. The character's reach attacks do his base unarmed damage only, and do not benefit from his strength modifier.

-- Nifft

 

[Capellan]

The Order of the Long Hand looks like an interesting PrC - lots of cool ideas in it - but the game mechanics need a lot of work. For one thing, it's possible to get your first OLH level at 3rd. 2 levels of MOnk is all that is required to qualify for the PrC. I suggest adding a requirement for BAB +4. This pushes the qualification out to 6th for a straight Monk, and no better than 5th (at least as far as I can see) for a multi-classed character (eg Fighter / Monk)

I have some problems with the other mechanics as well, but I'm still working on my responses to those

 

[Nifft]

See, I wouldn't have a problem with a Monk taking this as class levels 3-7, mainly because the effects are cool, but not unlike just using a spiked chain.

A Monk2/OLH5 would do 1d6 points of damage unarmed, move 30 feet, have +0 AC and have BAB +4 and UAB +4/+1.

A Monk7 would do 1d8 points of damage unarmed, move 50 feet, have +1 AC and have a BAB of +5 and UAB +5/+2.

And don't forget this nice stuff, copied from the SRD:

Still Mind: At 3rd level, a monk gains a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and effects from the Enchantment school.

Slow Fall: At 4th level, the monk takes damage as if a fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. At 18th level, the monk can use a nearby wall to slow her descent and fall any distance without harm.

Purity of Body: At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases except for magical diseases.

Improved Trip: At 6th level, a monk gains the Improved Trip feat. She need not have taken the Expertise feat, normally a prerequisite.

Wholeness of Body: At 7th level, a monk can cure her own wounds. She can cure up to twice her current level in hit points each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses. Wholeness of body is a supernatural ability.

Leap of the Clouds: At 7th level or higher, a monk's jumping distance (vertical or horizontal) is not limited according to her height.

(Sorry, that looks longer than I'd intended ... anyway, the point is that regular Monks get cool powers too, and taking this PrC significantly delays those powers.)

All that said, though, any critique is welcome. I don't have tons of experience making PrCs (probably obvious), so thanks for the feedback.

-- Nifft

 

[SSquirrel]

Of course..

I'm one on that other side who says "Who cares, just do it" I mean c'mon it isn't unbalancing as 1 throw each round does that much..hell I don't think 1 shuriken following their unarmed attack *so possibly 5 at 20th level* would be broken considering how ridiculous archery can get with certain feats. Of course, at 20th level everything is pretty ridiculous so why not

It fits with the ninja ideas, it fits with Wuxia movies in general, and it would make the core monk more interesting. Not to say it's dull, but I still don't see enough reason to not just alter monks in your world rather than using a PrC. Course I would be combining Wizards and Sorcerors in my world, having a combo of the Monk and Psychic Warrior in addition to each of those classes, using my spell-less Ranger, making Paladins a PrC, and just generally screwing with everything.