Breakstone
First Post
Klaus said:Plus, how fun is a family reunion with half-orcs, half-elves and humans all together?
I would love to play in a group with a half-orc and a half-elf who are brothers.
Would you allow half-races?
- Thread starter Ghostwind
- Start date
I would love to play in a group with a half-orc and a half-elf who are brothers.
Hybrids are very rare in nature, but they do occur. Two examples I know of are a lynx-cat (half lynx, half bobcat) and this poor fellow I saw on a PBS show who was a hybrid of two kinds of prarie chickens. His mating behavior was an odd cross of the two species, hence he didn't get to mate (not that he would have been fertile if he could). Since hybrids are sterile they don't produce any offspring of their own, and are only found as an occasional single creature. I would point out that all those different breeds of dogs are actually the same species (canis domesticus, IIRC), and thus can freely interbreed.
As for my campaigns, I don't like the third edition proliferation of half-breeds, but anything is possible for some wizard to come up with. As for the two standards (half-elf and half-orc), I generally consider orcs and humans to be the same species, and there are whole tribes or populations of "half-orcs" that mostly breed among themselves. As for half-elves, IMC elves are the decendants of the offsprings of humans and a sidhe/alfar-type race from another plane. Thus they are much more human than other fey, and can even breed with humans. Other possibilities (elf/orc, dwarf/human) might be possible, but are so rare not to merit a specific mention (i.e. I'd probably let a player play one if he wanted, but no-one has ever asked).
As for my campaigns, I don't like the third edition proliferation of half-breeds, but anything is possible for some wizard to come up with. As for the two standards (half-elf and half-orc), I generally consider orcs and humans to be the same species, and there are whole tribes or populations of "half-orcs" that mostly breed among themselves. As for half-elves, IMC elves are the decendants of the offsprings of humans and a sidhe/alfar-type race from another plane. Thus they are much more human than other fey, and can even breed with humans. Other possibilities (elf/orc, dwarf/human) might be possible, but are so rare not to merit a specific mention (i.e. I'd probably let a player play one if he wanted, but no-one has ever asked).
Ghostwind said:
The fact is that many species are capable of cross-breeding. The reason they don't is because of social/survival factors. In sentient beings, many of those factors can be removed. In such cases, half-breeds are more likely to come about. This is how we get Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
ARandomGod
First Post
Ghostwind said:
Fantasy literature, basically.
Ghostwind said:
Well, my simple answer is that orcs and elves are human. Just with a few recessive or dominate genes. Some humans are very, very dark skinned, some are very light skinned, and apparently some live a long time and have pointed ears (Elves), while some are bigger, stronger, and hairyer (Orcs).
A half elf is no different than a half-african, or a half oriental, genetically speaking.
A different, more fantasy oriented answer is: Miagic. Especially with things like half dragons. These aren't normal reproductions, every half dragon exists simply because of magical genetic manipulation.
I'm open to half-races but mechanically they're a problem.
In one game of mine elves and orcs have bred into humanity so much that they only exist as a breed of humans (grey-skinned humans descended from a drow-like race and green-skinned humans descended from orcs). True blooded elves returned to faerie and are now fey instead of humanoid (elf).
In another game I've let half-elves choose between the human racial bonus package and the elf racial bonus package instead of using the half-elf package in the Player's Handbook.
The concept behind most D&D games isn't scientific (unlike Palladium's "no half elf" rule). In myth Zeus turned into a swan and had a child with a human woman. Also a woman mated with a bull and produced the Minotaur (a man with the head of a bull). Reproduction is magical in these situations and not scientific. It makes sense that many D&D games (including the half-elf rule) would use a similar magical definition of reproductions instead of a science based rule about different species.
In one game of mine elves and orcs have bred into humanity so much that they only exist as a breed of humans (grey-skinned humans descended from a drow-like race and green-skinned humans descended from orcs). True blooded elves returned to faerie and are now fey instead of humanoid (elf).
In another game I've let half-elves choose between the human racial bonus package and the elf racial bonus package instead of using the half-elf package in the Player's Handbook.
The concept behind most D&D games isn't scientific (unlike Palladium's "no half elf" rule). In myth Zeus turned into a swan and had a child with a human woman. Also a woman mated with a bull and produced the Minotaur (a man with the head of a bull). Reproduction is magical in these situations and not scientific. It makes sense that many D&D games (including the half-elf rule) would use a similar magical definition of reproductions instead of a science based rule about different species.
I agree with those who said that Tolkien seems to set the trend for D&D. In Middle-Earth and elf and a human could have children together (although, as pointed out, the offspring didn't much resemble D&D's half-elves), and there were strong rumors of orcs being bred with humans to create dangerous (and repulsive) minions for evil. But there are no dwarf/non-dwarf half-breeds, no halfling/non-halfling half-breeds (despite the fact that it is generally agreed that hobbits are a kind of human), and no troll/humans or (don't even think about it) ent-humans.
I've always liked half-breeds, in D&D and literature - the mixing of cultures and the characters' status in society can be very interesting - but only in moderation. IMC there are half-elves and half-orcs, as well as half-satyrs and half-dryads. But no half-dwarves, half-gnomes, or half-halflings (quarterlings, but I'm sure I'm not the first to make the joke). The other half-breeds in my campaign occur when a very powerful being who can take on human form mates with a human. So I'm not intrinsically opposed to, say, half-dragons.
Some very interesting characters came about when a prince among mirror elementals took on human form and spent some years wandering the material plane; he left behind a few children who (along with their children, now approaching adulthood themselves) fit into human society but have some odd abilities, physical features, and personality traits. But I try to treat this as a very rare - almost unique - event, rather than having a "race" of half-mirror elementals running around.
Panask
Servitar to Baldur
I've always liked half-breeds, in D&D and literature - the mixing of cultures and the characters' status in society can be very interesting - but only in moderation. IMC there are half-elves and half-orcs, as well as half-satyrs and half-dryads. But no half-dwarves, half-gnomes, or half-halflings (quarterlings, but I'm sure I'm not the first to make the joke). The other half-breeds in my campaign occur when a very powerful being who can take on human form mates with a human. So I'm not intrinsically opposed to, say, half-dragons.
Some very interesting characters came about when a prince among mirror elementals took on human form and spent some years wandering the material plane; he left behind a few children who (along with their children, now approaching adulthood themselves) fit into human society but have some odd abilities, physical features, and personality traits. But I try to treat this as a very rare - almost unique - event, rather than having a "race" of half-mirror elementals running around.
Panask
Servitar to Baldur
Aeric
Explorer
I personally like the idea of half-breeds--as something rare and special. When I played my half-elf many years ago, her mixed parentage was practically the focus of the character. She was raised among humans, elves were few and far between, and she had a lot of conflicts both internally and externally. It was great fun roleplaying her.
Making half-elves and half-orcs a race unto themselves, as Eberron has done, completely takes any sort of interesting roleplay potential out of the race. I might feel better about it if they actually had names of their own instead of "half-," but the impact of being a naturally occuring half-elf or half-orc in Eberron is greatly diminished because of their existence. Half-elves and half-orcs in Eberron are to humans what Tallfellows and Stouts were to halflings (thank God they got rid of those...the thought of a hobbit getting busy with an elf or dwarf/gnome was...uuuuhhhh).
As far as half-monsters go...they went a bit far with those. I had to draw the line at half-elemental. Half-ELEMENTAL?!?! How does that happen?? No, wait, don't tell me. I don't want to know. Maybe stout halflings weren't so bad after all....
Anyways, I would say use the half-breeds, but use them very sparingly. Make their appearance rare and special, and the story of their creation interesting. In the case of half-elves/orcs, vary their abilities up a bit so that they're not all the same. Maybe this guy inherited more from his orcish father than his human mother, maybe that guy looks almost completely human, etc.
Making half-elves and half-orcs a race unto themselves, as Eberron has done, completely takes any sort of interesting roleplay potential out of the race. I might feel better about it if they actually had names of their own instead of "half-," but the impact of being a naturally occuring half-elf or half-orc in Eberron is greatly diminished because of their existence. Half-elves and half-orcs in Eberron are to humans what Tallfellows and Stouts were to halflings (thank God they got rid of those...the thought of a hobbit getting busy with an elf or dwarf/gnome was...uuuuhhhh).
As far as half-monsters go...they went a bit far with those. I had to draw the line at half-elemental. Half-ELEMENTAL?!?! How does that happen?? No, wait, don't tell me. I don't want to know. Maybe stout halflings weren't so bad after all....
Anyways, I would say use the half-breeds, but use them very sparingly. Make their appearance rare and special, and the story of their creation interesting. In the case of half-elves/orcs, vary their abilities up a bit so that they're not all the same. Maybe this guy inherited more from his orcish father than his human mother, maybe that guy looks almost completely human, etc.
The Origin of Species
I'm pro half-elf and half-orc. IMC, elves (including Sea Elves), orcs, and sahuagin (who have throw-backs who look like Sea Elves) are all the same species as humans.
Elves are the First Born, like the Ancients in Stargate.
Humans are a partially fallen version, some more than others. We're the Homo Sapiens Neandertalis to the elves Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Orcs and sahuagin are elves twisted by the evil magic of Morgoth, or someone similar, back in an age forgotten by man.
I don't like other half-races, with the exception of tieflings and aasimaar. Half-dragons, half-ogres, etc., strike me as way too high on the Cheese Factor rating.
As for hybrids not occuring in nature and always being sterile, I know of one exception: the red wolf of the American Southwest. It's unclear to scientists whether it's a subspecies of grey/timber wolf, or it's just a cross-breed of coyote. And it has a small, endangered, self-sustaining population, whatever it is.
Of the other near human "races", I think they are distinct lines of parallel evolution. and so cannot crossbred -- like the marsupial Tasmanian wolf, compared to any other wolf. Looks the same, has the same ecological niche, but it's utterly different genome, among other things being a marsupial instead of a mammal. I'd put goblins and lizardmen in that category.
For dwarves and gnomes, I'd say it's a different branch of evolution, like australopithecus afarensis (Lucy) compared to the Homo branch. I guess they are two different species of Dwarfopithecus, and can't interbreed, or maybe they just think its icky.
As for halflings, Homo floresiensis comes to mind -- the halfling-sized fossils found in Indonesia in 2004. So maybe they are just a different species of the Homo genus? But given early D&D's subraces of Tallfellow (halflings with elves characteristics) and Stout (halflings with dwarvish characteristics), plus Hairfeet (normal halflings), maybe halflings are the missing link, the common origin of the Homo line (elves, orcs, sahuagin, and man) and the Dwarfopithecus line (dwarves and gnomes).
Only elvish scholars would likely have figured that out, and they aren't likely to let the "First Born" tag drop.
I'm pro half-elf and half-orc. IMC, elves (including Sea Elves), orcs, and sahuagin (who have throw-backs who look like Sea Elves) are all the same species as humans.
Elves are the First Born, like the Ancients in Stargate.
Humans are a partially fallen version, some more than others. We're the Homo Sapiens Neandertalis to the elves Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Orcs and sahuagin are elves twisted by the evil magic of Morgoth, or someone similar, back in an age forgotten by man.
I don't like other half-races, with the exception of tieflings and aasimaar. Half-dragons, half-ogres, etc., strike me as way too high on the Cheese Factor rating.
As for hybrids not occuring in nature and always being sterile, I know of one exception: the red wolf of the American Southwest. It's unclear to scientists whether it's a subspecies of grey/timber wolf, or it's just a cross-breed of coyote. And it has a small, endangered, self-sustaining population, whatever it is.
Of the other near human "races", I think they are distinct lines of parallel evolution. and so cannot crossbred -- like the marsupial Tasmanian wolf, compared to any other wolf. Looks the same, has the same ecological niche, but it's utterly different genome, among other things being a marsupial instead of a mammal. I'd put goblins and lizardmen in that category.
For dwarves and gnomes, I'd say it's a different branch of evolution, like australopithecus afarensis (Lucy) compared to the Homo branch. I guess they are two different species of Dwarfopithecus, and can't interbreed, or maybe they just think its icky.
As for halflings, Homo floresiensis comes to mind -- the halfling-sized fossils found in Indonesia in 2004. So maybe they are just a different species of the Homo genus? But given early D&D's subraces of Tallfellow (halflings with elves characteristics) and Stout (halflings with dwarvish characteristics), plus Hairfeet (normal halflings), maybe halflings are the missing link, the common origin of the Homo line (elves, orcs, sahuagin, and man) and the Dwarfopithecus line (dwarves and gnomes).
Only elvish scholars would likely have figured that out, and they aren't likely to let the "First Born" tag drop.
lukelightning
First Post
People should remember that Aasimar and Tieflings are not half-races. They are not the children of a fiend or a celesital and a mortal...that would be a half-fiend or half-celestial. Aasimar and Tieflings are "planetouched" meaning it is some distant ancestral trait that has emerged in them.
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