Would you play D&D if the sacred cows were sacrificed?

[Michael Tree]

Sacred cows that I think are neccessary to make D&D D&D:
- Classes
- Levels (though you could easily space out the levels to allow for more character progression without them becoming too powerful too quickly).
- Defined Spells. As much as I like flexible magic systems like Mage and True20, a big part of D&D is the big spell list.
- Hit Points. The way they're currently implemented could be changed, like using Vitality & Wounds, or Iron Heroes' death rules, but I don't think you could replace HP with a damage save and still feel like D&D.

Sacred cows that could be slaughtered and turned into juicy D&D steak:
- Vancian spellcasting. Get rid of the spell preparation, and replace it with something like Arcana Evolved's system. Better yet, change it to make it balanced per encounter instead of per day, like in Monte Cook's recent article, or like a spellcasting version of the Tome of Battle system.
- Armor Class. I desperately want character defenses to increase with level, instead of being entirely dependent upon equipment. I'm looking at you, True20 and Iron Heroes. It would also suit D&D if armor reduced damage instead of making you harder to hit.
- Buffing magic items. Having magic items are fun, but characters shouldn't have to wear over a dozen different buffing magic items just to be balanced. Make magic items give fun special abilities, not boring numerical modifiers.

edit: Or, I could just point to John Snow's post and write "What he said."

 

[Sharon Macguire]

I think as long as we have something called Class, Level, Hit Points, Armour Class... How it actually works is irrelevent as long as it reflects back upon the tropes of the metagenre its created. If it feels like D&D, it Is D&D, even if that classic 57 Cnevy has a hydrogen fuel cell engine and emissions-compliant exhaust with an airbag hidden in it, its still darn purty and a hell of a ride.

 

[Voadam]

Short answer: D&D without the sacred cows isn't D&D.

Long version: Very few of the things in D&D truly are "sacred cows."

So, the question is, what are the sacred cows? Offhand, I'd go with only the following:

- d20 for task resolution
- dice rolls for damage
. . .
- humans, dwarves, halflings and elves as core races (there may be others, but these 4 will always be there)

. . .

And as long as it held the above cows, I'd still play it. Which is why I still think of my Iron Heroes games as "D&D." It shares all those cows.

Red box basic D&D only used d20 for to hit rolls and saving throws. Didn't have ability checks as far as I remember. Surprise, thief skills, detecting secret doors, weapon damage, morale, etc. all used different dice for task resolution.

I'd be fine with average damage instead of rolling dice. It would quicken things a lot, particularly in pbp game running. I'd still call it D&D.

Settings without dwarves, elves, and halflings can still easily be D&D. See Iron Heroes or the old Lankhmar or Conan D&D modules.

 

[Lanefan]

Red box basic D&D only used d20 for to hit rolls and saving throws. Didn't have ability checks as far as I remember. Surprise, thief skills, detecting secret doors, weapon damage, morale, etc. all used different dice for task resolution.

Absolutely, and it never fails to amaze me that these things are today so often portrayed as difficult, or complicated, or poor design...I mean, how hard is it to reach for a different die?

Lanefan

 

[Gold Roger]

- Armor Class. I desperately want character defenses to increase with level, instead of being entirely dependent upon equipment. I'm looking at you, True20 and Iron Heroes. It would also suit D&D if armor reduced damage instead of making you harder to hit.

I agree defense should scale with level, but that's doable without slaughtering that particular holy Cow (a cow that is rather dear to me in D&D especially after seeing the alternatives).

 

[JohnSnow]

Red box basic D&D only used d20 for to hit rolls and saving throws. Didn't have ability checks as far as I remember. Surprise, thief skills, detecting secret doors, weapon damage, morale, etc. all used different dice for task resolution.

I'd be fine with average damage instead of rolling dice. It would quicken things a lot, particularly in pbp game running. I'd still call it D&D.

Settings without dwarves, elves, and halflings can still easily be D&D. See Iron Heroes or the old Lankhmar or Conan D&D modules.

First, I didn't actually mean you can't have D&D without those 4 races being present. However, I stand by them being one of the holy cows. Because, IMO, people would scream bloody murder if you DARED to present a game as D&D without stats for playing humans, elves, dwarves and halflings in the core rules. And I expect the designers realize that, because they always have been. Sounds pretty much like a sacred cow to me.

I wouldn't lay odds on any version of D&D ever instituting a straight damage number. Part of the "fun" for many peopl is watching the numbers come up on the dice. 'Sides, I'd say funny-shaped dice are a pretty big part of what makes D&D FEEL like D&D.

I almost just said "d20 for combat" because that's, IMO, part of why D&D became the most popular roleplaying game. Its resolution mechanic for combat (the most common ingame situation) was quite straightforward. I realize the application of the d20 to the skill system is recent. However, deciding to apply the d20 more universally to task resolution was one of the most brilliant advances in 3e in my opinion. And given how obvious it was, I don't see the designers separating out the mechanics again. I mean, they could, but I just don't see it happening.

So, let's call the use of the d20 for combat and saving throws "sacred cows" and leave the application of the d20 to other task resolution just in the "extremely likely to stick around" category.

I think most people would agree that D&D wouldn't be D&D without classes and levels. But I could be wrong.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I voted neutral as it was not clear what cows were going or what would replace them. I see there are widly different ideas on what the core elements of D&D are. I played red box basic and 1st edition then dropped out and played Palladiun, WFRP and MERP with some dirvertions in to GURPS and TFT. When 3e came out I was hooked. The people I play with switched out Palladium campaign to D&D.

So what do I regard as core D&D,
The core attributes and I like the dice rolling, it makes for more variety.
The core races,
Level bsed progression
Ability to take a licking and keep on tickin at high levels (save vs death aside)
spells

What I like about D20 is the d20 mechanic (of roll d20 + mods vs a number) and feats. I think feats are a great way to create a unique character.

I am not that wedded to AC. It was always just a number that determined what you had to roll to hit. I am not to bothered about vancian magic it can go but I would like to be able to recreate something like fireball etc with the replacement system. I do not mind open ended magic systems (like elements of magic) and am willing to spend time working out the spell/ritual to solve a particular campaing goal but if jumped crossing the river by kobolds I want my special effects prepackaged (fireball)

 

[MonsterMash]

Would it really be D&D anymore? Not to me I think. To be honest I don't really care if a 4e comes out as I don't need it and I've got plenty of 3e and C&C material to work with.

 

[Thunderfoot]

If I didn't want the sacred cows, I'd play something else. Leave D&D the way it is.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I will play D&D - and play it the way I want to play it. Whether someone sacrifices sacred cows is therefore irrelevant. Would I play their holy bovine-free version? That depends on the actual appeal of their version. With a more specific idea of what will be lost and gained by making steaks and burgers I'll be able to judge better if I think I might be inclined towards the actual result.