WoW 2004=D&D 1980-ish

[Harshax]

They may not play WoW to "feed a hungry mind", but they certainly use it as a vehicle for escape, much like DND or any other hobby.

So, you don't disagree with a later post of mine:

D&D and WoW are recreational pastimes, played by a noticeable number of people.

I very much like the concept of WoW, but I can barely stand a party larger than 8, let alone 8 million. I've played some unix based multi-players games on small servers in the past, and found it enjoyable for a few hours.

Anyway, I apologize if I derailed a thread whose sole purpose, I now understand, is to state the obvious.

 

[Orius]

This is so anime.

Once again, hong posts FTW.

 

[Orius]

It occurs to me: concerns about whether WoW and D&D compete, or whether WoW is killing D&D, and so on are swinging wide of the real issue: WoW is D&D. Or, rather, it fills the same niche with the same demographic that D&D did all those years ago. It's why the enjoyment of either isn't mutually exclusive of the other -- that has more to do with generation than anything else, I think. D&D can't fight WoW because they are members of the same evolutionary line.

Ok, now I'll get serious.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with your argument, but I think agree for a different reason.

I think WoW and similar games have done a good job of filling the dungeon crawling and hack-andslash niche D&D used to have back in the 70's and 80's. It can crunch the numbers faster than a human DM can, and I suppose it presents a visual world more vivid than a mediocre DM ever could (but I'd put my money on the skilled storyteller world buildling DM over WoW regardless of what edition he's using.)

D&D however, still has enough openness that players can do pretty much anything they want with it. WoW is still a slave to it's code. Not that that's a problem, but it's nust an inherent limit that a video game will always have.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Yes the concept being argued here is really pretty simple. D&D and WOW aim at similar demographic groups and have a large following who do both activities. They both attract smaller demographic groups that do one and not the other. Though the group that does only WOW is much larger than the group that does only D&D.

Very obvious.

And asking Why really does not add much.

 

[Reynard]

Ok, now I'll get serious.

I'm not sure if I completely agree with your argument, but I think agree for a different reason.

I think WoW and similar games have done a good job of filling the dungeon crawling and hack-andslash niche D&D used to have back in the 70's and 80's. It can crunch the numbers faster than a human DM can, and I suppose it presents a visual world more vivid than a mediocre DM ever could (but I'd put my money on the skilled storyteller world buildling DM over WoW regardless of what edition he's using.)

D&D however, still has enough openness that players can do pretty much anything they want with it. WoW is still a slave to it's code. Not that that's a problem, but it's nust an inherent limit that a video game will always have.

It might be too much to ask, but I really am trying to make it clear here that I am not talking about D&D vs WoW here -- not as a play experience, not as a issue of preference, and certainly not as a "zOMG the rules are changing DnD is no more". I am talking about them not where they collide, but where they coincide, and their similarities in reference to the wider popular culture. Unfortunetly, it seems that one can't put WoW and D&D in the same sentence without the dedicated defenders of D&D and WoW charging into battle, tilting at windmills.

 

[Reynard]

Yes the concept being argued here is really pretty simple. D&D and WOW aim at similar demographic groups and have a large following who do both activities. They both attract smaller demographic groups that do one and not the other. Though the group that does only WOW is much larger than the group that does only D&D.

Very obvious.

And asking Why really does not add much.

I would guess that those whose businesses and livings are dependent upon either or both would disagree with you wholeheartedly. More importantly, there's always value in reasonable discussion of ideas, even if they don't have any real impact on your day to day life. That is, after all, why we have discussion boards, isn't it (hong notwithstanding).

 

[hong]

It might be too much to ask, but I really am trying to make it clear here that I am not talking about D&D vs WoW here -- not as a play experience, not as a issue of preference, and certainly not as a "zOMG the rules are changing DnD is no more". I am talking about them not where they collide, but where they coincide, and their similarities in reference to the wider popular culture. Unfortunetly, it seems that one can't put WoW and D&D in the same sentence without the dedicated defenders of D&D and WoW charging into battle, tilting at windmills.

I knew it! This IS another "they're ruining the game by using the word 'buff'" thread! I'm on to you, "Reynard", if that IS your real name!

 

[abeattie]

Unfortunetly, it seems that one can't put WoW and D&D in the same sentence without the dedicated defenders of D&D and WoW charging into battle, tilting at windmills.

There are windmills here!!! Where? /tilt/

Seriously though, the question that equates the two in spirit really misses the point. They're both games so, yes, they may appeal to a similar niche market. But World of Warcraft is the kind of game that draws people in. It's easy to pick up -- there are no rules to learn because the game simply will not allow you to break the rules, so you use the very limited number of powers and abilities you have and nothing else.

DnD has a very high learning curve. You need to learn AC, HPs, levels, classes, movement, to hit rolls, damage rolls, you need to learn the difference between your attacks (all the more so now with all the classes using powers more often than a straight swing) none of which is true in WoW. If I don't know how a power works, I click on it and it either works or it dosen't. At a DnD table, I try to do something wrong and one or many people tell me I can't. Which of those feels more restrictive at the first play?

Sure -- once you figure out what DnD is about you have endless options. But I think WoW provides an invaluable gateway purpose. Making the DnD mechanic similar in any way -- even if it's just by giving similar names to powers that fill similar roles in both games (cleave comes to mind - WoW cleave is almost exactly identical). I have very actively promoted the game since the first time I played it. I tried sitting my folks down to a game table to see if they could pick it up -- but the rules were too much to absorb. When I sat them down in front of wow and said "you play, I'll be over there" they picked it up intuitively and then were able to make connections to the dnd mechanics. (that's 3.5 ed).

The meat of the game, the thing WoW cannot capture is the dynamism of DnD. I don't want to think about how many times I've beaten Whitemane down and rolled her corpse for loot -- but then we reset the dungeon, run back through, and there she is! I feel so fullfilled. :/

 

[OchreJelly]

So, you don't disagree with a later post of mine:



I very much like the concept of WoW, but I can barely stand a party larger than 8, let alone 8 million. I've played some unix based multi-players games on small servers in the past, and found it enjoyable for a few hours.

Anyway, I apologize if I derailed a thread whose sole purpose, I now understand, is to state the obvious.

No I don't disagree, nor do I disagree with the sentiment that playing one doesn't automatically mean you'd play the other. I should have been more clear there. And it really is about stating the obvious. Saying two people don't necessarily like to play the same game isn't really saying much. You could replace WoW with poker. Marketing types may beg to differ I'm sure.

I guess it was the implication that WoW players aren't the sort who would crack a book, that spurred my response. I realize you were making a point and not trying to offend, so no harm done.

As to the topic, yes I believe WoW is today's cultural phenomenon. It's not even as 'geeky' to play as DND is often considered by outsiders. However, I feel like there is room for DND (or RPG's in general). For newer players, WoW can be a gateway to all things fantasy (RPGs, fiction, comics etc.). If WoW has proven anything is that it can expand markets that traditional marketing didn't even think existed. And by "expand", I mean "blow the doors off".

 

[Harshax]

I guess it was the implication that WoW players aren't the sort who would crack a book, that spurred my response. I realize you were making a point and not trying to offend, so no harm done.

We're cool. I had no intention of implying that WoW players were mental couch potatoes. I also had no intention of revealing my age. Which is to say, I grew up when the hobby was dominated by those who were equally entertained by history, mythology, and politics, and D&D was very good at providing inroads to real world topics that in turn enriched the game. WoW is certainly a gateway to a variety of other activities, but I'm too old to crave or appreciate them. (I wish that wasn't true)