WoW and 4e - where's the beef?

[AllisterH]

This is where I think a lot people disagree with each other.

To me, and I suspect to many others who think the comparison is valid, 4e's at-will, encounter, and daily powers seem very much like CRPG/MMO power cooldowns, and much more so than 3e did.

I'm not an expert on WoW, but having played a decent amount of Guild Wars in my time, I can say that it feels very similar. You have your powers you can spam more or less all the time, your powers that you can pull off periodically in the fight, and powers that you can only pull off once in a fight, all achieved via cooldowns. Obviously 4e scales it slightly differently (and for all I know, WoW might too), but it still seems very comparable to me.

The reasons I don't think that the same can be said for 3e and earlier are twofold:

First, it didn't apply to every class. Spellcasters had a cooldown mechanic via Vancian casting, but fighters and thieves didn't. This is in contrast to CRPG/MMO practice where it's a defining characteristic of the entire combat system.

Second, there were no tiers of cooldown. You cast your spell, and couldn't cast it again until the next day. A defining feature of the MMO combat being discussed is that different powers have different cooldown times, which becomes an important tactical element.

Basically, while you're correct that 3e had some MMO-like cooldown aspects, I feel that 4e is MUCH more similar in that regard. Not identical, but much more similar.

*Chuckle* I like this discussion.

But that's the thing resistor. As you alluded to, many other people are scratching their head when people equate encounter powers with cooldown.

Encounter powers are HORRIBLE analogs for cooldown since as you pointed out, you can cast a cooldown power multiple times in a fight as long as the fight goes on.

If you have a cooldown of 5 minutes, and the raid last 30 minutes (definitely on the low side of BBEG in the high level areas), you're getting at least 5 castings of that power.

That same fight in D&D, you're only casting your encounter power ONCE and that's it. Hell, one of the complaints about 4e _IS_ the fact that encounter powers don't recharge in a fight a la ToB.

In a fight scenario, a 4e character really has only two options.
1. Pull off an attack they can do at will
2.
3. Pull off a once per fight manoeuver.

So how does this make encounter powers akin to cooldown?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I think the problem regarding "4e is WoW!" is that the statement was made first, and the defense for the statement later. It as a common, if stupid, insult, but it wasn't until AFTER it was challenged that people suddenly had to show it. That's why most of the "4e is WoW"-isms could just as easily apply to virtually any fantasy game ever created*.

*I know I mentioned this before, but...well, 'cept the Tiefling-Draenei thing. They look mad similar, yo.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Interesting discussion.

re: Healing Surges

I'm not sure what the videogame equivalent to this is....but here's an interesting point. THe original HALO:CE, was widely hailed as being revolutionary BECAUSE of its automatic healing (shields). Prior to Halo, healing required the use of stimpacks and actual healing classes so here's the question.

Is 4e's healing a videogame concept given that pre-HALO, videogames did NOT use automatic healing?

This reminded me more of arcade combat games than CRPGs.

 

[AllisterH]

This reminded me more of arcade combat games than CRPGs.

Didnt all arcade games use the "healing potons drops from the sky/enemy/box" archtype?

True, last time I was in arcades was when Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting was the new thing so I may not be keeping up with you young whippersnappers

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I meant more the martial arts combat games, not the ones with guns.

 

[resistor]

Encounter powers are HORRIBLE analogs for cooldown since as you pointed out, you can cast a cooldown power multiple times in a fight as long as the fight goes on.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

I've already offered two major ways in which 4e powers are much more like MMO cooldown than anything prior was (all classes are based on them, and their are different tiers of cooldown form an integral part of the tactics).

Your response is "But the exact scale of the cooldowns is different!"

Bologne.

You still have spam powers (at-wills), periodic powers (encounters), and rare powers (dailies). The details are, of course, different, though I think a lot of that is because of differences of the format:

1) Most MMOs run in real-time, so having powers that take a day to recharge would be impractical for all but the most extremely powerful powers, since you'd have to wait a day of real time between uses.

2) MMOs can also offer much greater granularity of cooldown times, since the computer is tracking it. Though, IMO, powers continue to fall, generally, into a fast, medium, and slow breakdown.

 

[Leatherhead]

I think the problem regarding "4e is WoW!" is that the statement was made first, and the defense for the statement later. It as a common, if stupid, insult, but it wasn't until AFTER it was challenged that people suddenly had to show it. That's why most of the "4e is WoW"-isms could just as easily apply to virtually any fantasy game ever created*.

*I know I mentioned this before, but...well, 'cept the Tiefling-Draenei thing. They look mad similar, yo.

Actually the problem is that people think WoW is a horrible, evil thing, instead of something that some people don't like.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Actually the problem is that people think WoW is a horrible, evil thing, instead of something that some people don't like.

Wow IS a horrible, evil thing. It is designed to trigger psychological addiction response. This has NOTHING to do with WoWisms in D&D.

 

[Rechan]

Wow IS a horrible, evil thing. It is designed to trigger psychological addiction response. This has NOTHING to do with WoWisms in D&D.

I agree with this statement.

I've lost too many friends to WoW.

 

[mmu1]

Encounter powers are HORRIBLE analogs for cooldown since as you pointed out, you can cast a cooldown power multiple times in a fight as long as the fight goes on.

Actually, you have it backwards - really long WoW fights are HORRIBLE analogs for D&D combat encounters.

Fortunately, 99% of the combats a WoW character is going to be involved in are NOTHING like the massive affairs you need in order to recharge anything but the shortest timers.

And 4E does provide for abilities recharging within the encounter - it just doesn't allow the PCs to do that, but the mechanic is there...

To be honest, though, I'm not being quite serious here. As Resistor points out, all these attempts to prove that since a PnP RPG and a MMORPG are not exactly the same in many ways, hence there can possibly be NO comparison, are missing the forest for the trees.

It's as if people don't get what "feels like" means. Or pretend they don't so they can argue about it.