WoW Imitates 4e?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think it's great that in 4E they made sure that every character was useful in every encounter. That wasn't something that was true in earlier editions.

Poor bards.

 

[MrMyth]

I'd say that (a) Yes, it sounds like a similar design structure to the 4E approach, and (b) I don't imagine it was in any way patterned after it, but simply the sort of parallel design you end up with in similar fields with similar concerns.

Also, (c) That it is one element among many, some of which will mirror one edition of D&D, some of which will mirror another, some of which will resemble other games entirely - and plenty that are entirely their own thing as well.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

On balance I'd have to reckon there's a huge gap between the sparkly, insubstantial world of Wow and the thinnest tabletop game - even when hastily thrown together on the back of a cigarette packet on an overcrowded underground.

Wowpedia says Azeroth is a hell of a lot more detailed than any setting you've ever run. (Or that I've run, for that matter. Just click on the Random Page a few links for some staggeringly long entries about groups, NPCs and locales.)

The very existence of Level 90 tells me all I need to know

Not really. Online game play -- even with Dungeons & Dragons Online, which is set in Eberron -- requires both creating regular milestones to reward play and spreading power levels out so that someone doesn't run out of things to do after a week-long binge of play.

Would you prefer it if WoW had only 20 levels, but split them up into 5 "sub-levels" with their own power boosts?

Levels are just numbers.

 

[Halivar]

I have World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game as quite distinct from WoW

That'd akin to taking the Greenwood and Salvatore novels as being quite distinct from the Forgotten Realms campaign game books. Strictly speaking, yes, it's true; but it's leaving a hell of a lot on the table, especially a lot of the inspirational material that formed the milieu as a whole.

People who design for the Warcraft franchise are well-steeped in the lore, and the latest expansion draws heavily on the Warcraft RPG, where Panderans are most prevalent. The lore is important, and should not be set aside.

 

[nedjer]

That'd akin to taking the Greenwood and Salvatore novels as being quite distinct from the Forgotten Realms campaign game books. Strictly speaking, yes, it's true; but it's leaving a hell of a lot on the table, especially a lot of the inspirational material that formed the milieu as a whole.

People who design for the Warcraft franchise are well-steeped in the lore, and the latest expansion draws heavily on the Warcraft RPG, where Panderans are most prevalent. The lore is important, and should not be set aside.

I commented on the gameplay rather than the setting/ crunch, creep and meta rather than fluff. It may have advancement, it may have epic campaigns, and it may have a rich backdrop; but six people connected to a computer-moderated game are not experiencing the same types of interaction/ fun as six people sitting round a table f2f with a GM moderating play

 

[nedjer]

Wowpedia says Azeroth is a hell of a lot more detailed than any setting you've ever run. (Or that I've run, for that matter. Just click on the Random Page a few links for some staggeringly long entries about groups, NPCs and locales.)


Not really. Online game play -- even with Dungeons & Dragons Online, which is set in Eberron -- requires both creating regular milestones to reward play and spreading power levels out so that someone doesn't run out of things to do after a week-long binge of play.

Would you prefer it if WoW had only 20 levels, but split them up into 5 "sub-levels" with their own power boosts?

Levels are just numbers.

Current setting is embedded in Scottish, English, Spanish and French C14th history with a large slice of authentic alchemy. Can Azeroth pass my players original historical documents, authentic Sketchup castle floor-plans or actual landscapes - I'm all detailed up

If a level takes time and is a demanding challenge the focus is more on PC grow-up instead of power-up - I'd see that as a richer form of gameplay and roleplaying?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If a level takes time and is a demanding challenge the focus is more on PC grow-up instead of power-up - I'd see that as a richer form of gameplay and roleplaying?

Are big numbers like "90" the problem, or is it that online RPGs traditionally have done the kick-down-the-door stuff better than the roleplaying stuff?

If you're looking for roleplaying, obviously, that's something that's best handled by human beings, in whatever venue. (Computers have a long way to go before they could offer 12 million customers compelling individualized roleplaying experiences.) Every MMORPG to date, even the truly terrible ones, have had roleplaying communities within them, where players run incredibly detailed roleplay adventures, some of which involve hundreds of players over the course of many years.

At the end of the day, if you're interested in roleplaying, a MMORPG is just a virtual tabletop to handle all the math and adjudication, while the roleplaying remains in the hands of the players. In WoW in particular, there's a large crowd of mod-makers who've enabled all sorts of additional roleplaying support beyond that, like scripting new in-character languages, the ability to hand around in-game items and more.

But you were the one who brought up levels as inherently "all you needed to know" about WoW. Have you done away with them in D&D?

 

[nedjer]

Are big numbers like "90" the problem, or is it that online RPGs traditionally have done the kick-down-the-door stuff better than the roleplaying stuff?

If you're looking for roleplaying, obviously, that's something that's best handled by human beings, in whatever venue. (Computers have a long way to go before they could offer 12 million customers compelling individualized roleplaying experiences.) Every MMORPG to date, even the truly terrible ones, have had roleplaying communities within them, where players run incredibly detailed roleplay adventures, some of which involve hundreds of players over the course of many years.

At the end of the day, if you're interested in roleplaying, a MMORPG is just a virtual tabletop to handle all the math and adjudication, while the roleplaying remains in the hands of the players. In WoW in particular, there's a large crowd of mod-makers who've enabled all sorts of additional roleplaying support beyond that, like scripting new in-character languages, the ability to hand around in-game items and more.

But you were the one who brought up levels as inherently "all you needed to know" about WoW. Have you done away with them in D&D?

no 'problem' I'm just a) overly 'gifted' at making inflammatory statements b) see a major qualitative difference 'in-game' between computer moderated roleplaying and brain moderated roleplaying.

Have to agree that where humans start to make games within videogames the fixed options open-up. Certainly seen this with kids in Free Realms, where they run wizard schools, businesses, stables and such like without the slightest regard for the game's fixtures and fittings.

 

[amerigoV]

If you're looking for roleplaying, obviously, that's something that's best handled by human beings, in whatever venue. (Computers have a long way to go before they could offer 12 million customers compelling individualized roleplaying experiences.)

I'm sad to say Dragon Age and Mass Effect, that while not MMORGs, kicked the panties off my gaming group when it comes to roleplaying. Heck, every Baldur's Gate 2 would give them a run for their money ("Hmm...Magic is impressive...but now...MINSC leads! SWORDS FOR EVERYBODY!")

 

[Summer-Knight925]

So how long before I can play a draenei in my 4e game?