D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[Mind of tempest]

I wonder why we need a new elf of all things, but this is very telling about their likely direction.

 

[Minigiant]

I wonder why we need a new elf of all things, but this is very telling about their likely direction.

Probably because it one of the few PHB races with easy to recognize features, associated cultural proficiencies featured that could be altered, and understand as a variant in Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun.

Like I mentioned before the Dwarf is mostly cultural proficiencies and ability adjustments. And the other PHB outside of gnome haven't been stretched than far now enshrined in all those settings as well.

Elf is literally the best race to test racial ideas because 1000 elf subraces is already meme and elves are found in most D&D, D&D adjacent, and Real world fictional settings.

 

[Umbran]

I agree, but I do think it’s an indication of what they’re considering doing, provided the response is positive enough.

If you did the same in a core rulebook, you might be looking at doubling the space races take up, which seems wasteful. Pulling out, and not repeating, shared information is more efficient.

In supplements, I can see this, so that you don't have to refer back to the core every time, but in core rulebooks, the space is at a premium.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Probably because it one of the few PHB races with easy to recognize features, associated cultural proficiencies featured that could be altered, and understand as a variant in Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun.

Like I mentioned before the Dwarf is mostly cultural proficiencies and ability adjustments. And the other PHB outside of gnome haven't been stretched than far now enshrined in all those settings as well.

Elf is literally the best race to test racial ideas because 1000 elf subraces is already meme and elves are found in most D&D, D&D adjacent, and Real world fictional settings.

I see your reasoning, still would have cared for something else.

 

[Charlaquin]

If you did the same in a core rulebook, you might be looking at doubling the space races take up, which seems wasteful. Pulling out, and not repeating, shared information is more efficient.

In supplements, I can see this, so that you don't have to refer back to the core every time, but in core rulebooks, the space is at a premium.

Seems like good feedback.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

This isn't really news. The Dragonborn from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons (from what we've seen in both the UA and the preview of the Metallic Dragonborn) are already split up into 3 separate races, not really being subraces of the same race. And this is fine for most of the races, because most races only have 1-4 subraces. However, it could be a problem for Tieflings and Elves, because they have a ton of subraces. Elves have High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Eladrin, Shadar-Kai, Sea Elves, Pallid Elves, and Mark of Shadow Elves, while Tieflings have 9 subraces; one for each layer of the Nine Hells (10 subraces if you include Feral Tieflings). That could get tedious.

 

[guachi]

I ditched subraces early on in my 5e DMing and told players that subrace has no meaning in-game and just pick the lump of stats that worked best. If nothing worked then we could swap roughly equivalent traits.

Personally, I'd love to see something done with humans to give them far more mechanical flavor than they already have.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

If you did the same in a core rulebook, you might be looking at doubling the space races take up, which seems wasteful. Pulling out, and not repeating, shared information is more efficient.

In supplements, I can see this, so that you don't have to refer back to the core every time, but in core rulebooks, the space is at a premium.

For the PHB it occurs to me there are enough subraces, especially if they add say the Genasi and Aasimar, to break the races chapter into racial families, like an Elf section where they give the universal Elven traits, then the unique traits for each Elf race.

 

[Charlaquin]

This isn't really news. The Dragonborn from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons (from what we've seen in both the UA and the preview of the Metallic Dragonborn) are already split up into 3 separate races, not really being subraces of the same race. And this is fine for most of the races, because most races only have 1-4 subraces. However, it could be a problem for Tieflings and Elves, because they have a ton of subraces. Elves have High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Eladrin, Shadar-Kai, Sea Elves, Pallid Elves, and Mark of Shadow Elves, while Tieflings have 9 subraces; one for each layer of the Nine Hells (10 subraces if you include Feral Tieflings). That could get tedious.

Tiefling subraces only change what ability score gets a +1 and what spells you get from your Infernal Legacy. The former probably won’t be relevant any more in the Anniversary Editions, and the latter could be consolidated by letting you pick from a list. Either a class spell list (warlock seems fitting), or a handful of options like we see in the new UA’s Astral Elf. Alternatively, put them in a table like Dragonborn ancestries.

Archdevil	Cantrip	3rd lvl	5th lvl
Asmodeus	Thaumaturgy	Hellish Rebuke	Darkness
Baalzebul	Thaumaturgy	Ray of Sickness	Crown of Madness

etc.

Elf subraces… Are likely to be a bit trickier.

 

[Dragonsbane]

That's basically how Pathfinder 2 does it. In PF2, these are the traits common to all elf PCs:

• 6 hit points (this is a one-time adjustment, in addition to the N+Con bonus/level you get, and 6 is pretty low).
• Size Medium.
• Speed 30 ft (faster than average).
• Low-light vision.
• The common and elven languages, plus Int modifier languages chosen from a default list that can specifically be expanded by other languages available in your region.
• A boost (+2) to Dexterity and Intelligence as well as any one other stat, and a penalty (-2) to Constitution.

In addition to these, you choose a Heritage, which to some degree fills the same role as a 5e subrace, but on a smaller scale. These are (with some exceptions) not directly linked to any ethnical groups, though some are more common in some groups than others. These are the ones from the core book:

• Arctic Elf: Adapted to cold climates, get some cold resistance and reduce the effects of environmental cold.
• Cavern Elf: You gain darkvision.
• Seer Elf: Can cast Detect Magic at will, and get a bonus to identify magic or decipher writing on magic.
• Whisper Elf: Finely tuned hearing lets you Seek for invisible creatures in a larger area than normal, and with a bonus if they're within the normal area.
• Woodland Elf: Can climb faster in woodlands and has an easier time finding cover in woodlands terrain.

In addition to these, you also get to choose an ancestry feat. At higher levels, you get more ancestral feats, and access to more powerful ones. At 1st level, an elf using the core book can choose:

• Ancestral Longevity (requires 100+ years of age): Each day you can choose a skill to treat as Trained, as you recall skills you once learned but that now has mostly atrophied.
• Elven Lore: You become trained in Arcana, Nature, and Elf Lore.
• Elven Weapon Familiarity: You become trained in traditional elf weapons.
• Forlorn: Save bonus against emotion effects.
• Nimble Elf: +5 ft Speed.
• Otherworldly Magic: Learn an arcane cantrip you can cast at will.
• Unwavering Mien: Reduce the duration of Mental spells by 1 round, and gain a save bonus against sleep effects.

I really like this way of doing ancestries. The effect is that "elf" is a very wide umbrella, but it's still fairly distinct from "dwarf". And for outlier cases, there's a general feat you can take that unlocks another ancestry's feats for you, as long as those feats aren't based on that ancestry's physiology (as determined by the GM). For example, an elf with Adopted Ancestry (Orc) couldn't take the Tusks feat, because elves don't have tusks.

This. PF2 does race really really well. The subraces are just an ability. In my game a player chooses which ancestry and heritage he is for RP (Gormdawi (Mountain Dwarf) or Bryndawi (Hill Dwarf) for example) but their stats are the same, and any one of the heritage abilities can be chosen. Their lore is different and this suffices for RP.

 

[Yaarel]

@Staffan and @Dragonsbane

I feel Pathfinder 2 does well to let the player choose the race traits.

My impression is, Pathfinder makes the differences minor ribbons. I prefer the way 5e feats allow substantial design space for differences.

The 5e core elf needs fluidity. Even basics like Creature Type and Speed can vary from elf to elf. Literally, the only thing every elf has in common is Medium Size.

A comprehensive way to represent the D&D elf traditions is almost a build-it-yourself custom race. There can still be familiar race features among the traits to choose from. But not every elf will pick the same traits.

Adding a new subrace, like the astral elf, is more like adding a set of traits to the traits to choose from.

It works well to organize the elf race traits into bundles that are worth half of a feat. Each trait set is worth half a feat, but some trait sets are worth a feat. I would even add the fairy flight to the list of elf traits to choose from make it count as one-and-a-half feats.

 

[Staffan]

@Staffan and @Dragonsbane

I feel Pathfinder 2 does well to let the player choose the race traits.

My impression is, Pathfinder makes the differences minor ribbons. I prefer the way 5e feats allow substantial design space for differences.

I don't know. I think my gnome character has gotten lots of mileage out of having Scent (letting him auto-detect nearby invisible creatures), being able to talk to burrowing animals (great for investigation), knowing zillions of languages (which combos well with being very good at Diplomacy), and getting an additional maxed-out Lore skill while also boosting the Lore skill I got from my background. The goblin alchemist in the party has done well with her fire resistance, dogslicer proficiency, ability to ride wolves and goblin dogs (which eventually lead to getting one as an animal companion via the Cavalier dedication), and most recently climbing speed. I know the two characters certainly feel very different from one another, and not just because I'm a sorcerer and she's an alchemist.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't know. I think my gnome character has gotten lots of mileage out of having Scent (letting him auto-detect nearby invisible creatures), being able to talk to burrowing animals (great for investigation), knowing zillions of languages (which combos well with being very good at Diplomacy), and getting an additional maxed-out Lore skill while also boosting the Lore skill I got from my background. The goblin alchemist in the party has done well with her fire resistance, dogslicer proficiency, ability to ride wolves and goblin dogs (which eventually lead to getting one as an animal companion via the Cavalier dedication), and most recently climbing speed. I know the two characters certainly feel very different from one another, and not just because I'm a sorcerer and she's an alchemist.

The difference between elves can be massive. Some even have wings!

 

[Yaarel]

There are no more subraces.

In the new book, Fizbans Treasury of Dragons, the dragonborn uses the new race format.

Of interest.
• There are no dragonborn subraces.
• There are three separate dragonborn races.
• Each related race has its own "ancestry".
• The dragon ancestries are: chromatic, gem, or metallic.
• Each ancestry is diverse. Metallic includes various metals.
• A race can offer a choice of traits to choose from.
• A trait can emerge at higher level (such as Flight at 5 for gem).
• Related races reprint a shared trait (Breath Weapon, etcetera).

Somewhat surprisingly. Despite the ability score increases being chosen separately, some traits depend on a specific ability, in this case the metallic breathweapons use Constitution. So the traits mechanically pressure the player to increase this particular ability.

Incidentally, there is a technical distinction between "Attack action" (capitalized) versus "attacks" (lowercase).



In sum. There are no more subraces. The new format makes each its own race. A player has a choice of traits to choose from. A trait might emerge later at a higher level.



Below is the official format and description for the metallic dragonborn race:



METALLIC DRAGONBORN
Dragonborn with metallic ancestry lay claim to the
tenacity of metallic dragons − brass, bronze, copper,
gold, and silver − whose hues glint in their scales.
Theirs is the fire of hearth and forge, the cold of
high mountain air, the spark of inspiration, and the
scouring touch of acid that purifies.

METALLIC DRAGONBORN TRAITS
You have the following racial traits.

Creature Type. You are a Humanoid.
Size. You are Medium.
Speed. Your walking speed is 30 feet.

Metallic Ancestry. You have a metallic dragon
ancestor granting you a special magical affinity.
Choose one kind of dragon from the Metallic Ances-
try table. This determines the damage type for your
other traits, as shown in the table.

Breath Weapon. When you take the Attack action
on your turn, you can replace one of your attacks
with an exhalation of magical energy in a 15-foot
cone. Each creature in that area must make a Dex-
terity saving throw (DC = 8 + your Constitution
modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save,
the creature takes 1d10 damage of the type associ-
ated with your Metallic Ancestry. On a successful
save, it takes half as much damage. This damage
increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10),
11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).

You can use your Breath Weapon a number of
times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you re-
gain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Draconic Resistance. You have resistance
to the damage type associated with your Metal-
lic Ancestry.

Metallic Breath Weapon. At 5th level, you gain
a second breath weapon. When you take the Attack
action on your turn, you can replace one of your at-
tacks with an exhalation in a 15-foot cone. The [save]
DC for this breath is 8 + your Constitution modifier
+ your proficiency bonus. Whenever you use this
trait, choose one:

Enervating Breath. Each creature in the cone must
succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become
incapacitated until the start of your next turn.

Repulsion Breath. Each creature in the cone must
succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed
20 feet away from you and be knocked prone.

Once you use your Metallic Breath Weapon, you
can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.

METALLIC ANCESTRY
Dragon : Damage Type
Brass : Fire
Bronze : Lightning
Copper : Acid
Gold : Fire
Silver : Cold

 

[Yaarel]

Crawford, interviewed by Todd Kendrick, casually refers to related races as "variants". For example, the "dragonborn variants".

 

[Dragonsbane]

A comprehensive way to represent the D&D elf traditions is almost a build-it-yourself custom race. There can still be familiar race features among the traits to choose from. But not every elf will pick the same traits.

Perhaps. But then why have race? Are they just stats? Or is there a culture/society behind every one?

IMHO this whole choose-your-race-abilities make races seem really cheapened and similar.

 

[Mort]

Perhaps. But then why have race? Are they just stats? Or is there a culture/society behind every one?

IMHO this whole choose-your-race-abilities make races seem really cheapened and similar.

I have the opposite view.

Now that players aren't fixated on choosing a race mostly for its ability bonuses (funny how bards seem to skew so heavily half-elf!) they can actually focus on the stuff that makes the race unique and interesting.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I have the opposite view.

Now that players aren't fixated on choosing a race mostly for its ability bonuses (funny how bards seem to skew so heavily half-elf!) they can actually focus on the stuff that makes the race unique and interesting.

That’s is a point well taken. However, if we have a race with many warriors and give str and con (dwarves) we will see it in play.

when the dwarf says “no” I want to be a wizard, that pc is perceived as an unusual sight that mirrors in game fiction (if it’s true that dwarven wizards are rare).

I can really see both sides and do lament that the unusual combinations will be nothing extraordinary anymore. And by that I mean very specifically uncommon, rare and not seen much at the table.

it’s interesting to note that all characters can get a 20 eventually but without the quick start some folks will just avoid the extra ASI or half feat to get there.

theres not right or wrong here: some people want quicker payoff. That’s ok.

but I do think it reduces congruence of in game fiction party and character composition a bit.

 

[Ixal]

I have the opposite view.

Now that players aren't fixated on choosing a race mostly for its ability bonuses (funny how bards seem to skew so heavily half-elf!) they can actually focus on the stuff that makes the race unique and interesting.

Except that biology is what makes races unique. By making ability scores selectable you remove nearly all uniqueness from races.

 

[Mort]

Except that biology is what makes races unique. By making ability scores selectable you remove nearly all uniqueness from races.

Hogwash:

A +2 or +1 to a particular stat does not make a race interesting. Many Half Orcs are strong but why ALL half-orcs? Many elves are dexterous but why ALL elves?

In the grand scheme, it's not a huge bump 5-10% PCs should be able to apply how they like.

Truly interesting stuff, like being able to squeeze through a 1 inch hole, having 4 arms or being mostly construct - that has the potential for being interesting,

Besides, PCs are supposed to be somewhat outliers - the ones who don't exactly fit in and are drawn to a life of wandering and adventure - why limit them to their racial trends (which are silly anyway).