Mind of tempest
(he/him)
I wonder why we need a new elf of all things, but this is very telling about their likely direction.
Probably because it one of the few PHB races with easy to recognize features, associated cultural proficiencies featured that could be altered, and understand as a variant in Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun.I wonder why we need a new elf of all things, but this is very telling about their likely direction.
I agree, but I do think it’s an indication of what they’re considering doing, provided the response is positive enough.
I see your reasoning, still would have cared for something else.Probably because it one of the few PHB races with easy to recognize features, associated cultural proficiencies featured that could be altered, and understand as a variant in Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun.
Like I mentioned before the Dwarf is mostly cultural proficiencies and ability adjustments. And the other PHB outside of gnome haven't been stretched than far now enshrined in all those settings as well.
Elf is literally the best race to test racial ideas because 1000 elf subraces is already meme and elves are found in most D&D, D&D adjacent, and Real world fictional settings.
Seems like good feedback.If you did the same in a core rulebook, you might be looking at doubling the space races take up, which seems wasteful. Pulling out, and not repeating, shared information is more efficient.
In supplements, I can see this, so that you don't have to refer back to the core every time, but in core rulebooks, the space is at a premium.
If you did the same in a core rulebook, you might be looking at doubling the space races take up, which seems wasteful. Pulling out, and not repeating, shared information is more efficient.
In supplements, I can see this, so that you don't have to refer back to the core every time, but in core rulebooks, the space is at a premium.
Tiefling subraces only change what ability score gets a +1 and what spells you get from your Infernal Legacy. The former probably won’t be relevant any more in the Anniversary Editions, and the latter could be consolidated by letting you pick from a list. Either a class spell list (warlock seems fitting), or a handful of options like we see in the new UA’s Astral Elf. Alternatively, put them in a table like Dragonborn ancestries.This isn't really news. The Dragonborn from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons (from what we've seen in both the UA and the preview of the Metallic Dragonborn) are already split up into 3 separate races, not really being subraces of the same race. And this is fine for most of the races, because most races only have 1-4 subraces. However, it could be a problem for Tieflings and Elves, because they have a ton of subraces. Elves have High Elves, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Eladrin, Shadar-Kai, Sea Elves, Pallid Elves, and Mark of Shadow Elves, while Tieflings have 9 subraces; one for each layer of the Nine Hells (10 subraces if you include Feral Tieflings). That could get tedious.
Archdevil | Cantrip | 3rd lvl | 5th lvl |
Asmodeus | Thaumaturgy | Hellish Rebuke | Darkness |
Baalzebul | Thaumaturgy | Ray of Sickness | Crown of Madness |
This. PF2 does race really really well. The subraces are just an ability. In my game a player chooses which ancestry and heritage he is for RP (Gormdawi (Mountain Dwarf) or Bryndawi (Hill Dwarf) for example) but their stats are the same, and any one of the heritage abilities can be chosen. Their lore is different and this suffices for RP.That's basically how Pathfinder 2 does it. In PF2, these are the traits common to all elf PCs:
In addition to these, you choose a Heritage, which to some degree fills the same role as a 5e subrace, but on a smaller scale. These are (with some exceptions) not directly linked to any ethnical groups, though some are more common in some groups than others. These are the ones from the core book:
- 6 hit points (this is a one-time adjustment, in addition to the N+Con bonus/level you get, and 6 is pretty low).
- Size Medium.
- Speed 30 ft (faster than average).
- Low-light vision.
- The common and elven languages, plus Int modifier languages chosen from a default list that can specifically be expanded by other languages available in your region.
- A boost (+2) to Dexterity and Intelligence as well as any one other stat, and a penalty (-2) to Constitution.
In addition to these, you also get to choose an ancestry feat. At higher levels, you get more ancestral feats, and access to more powerful ones. At 1st level, an elf using the core book can choose:
- Arctic Elf: Adapted to cold climates, get some cold resistance and reduce the effects of environmental cold.
- Cavern Elf: You gain darkvision.
- Seer Elf: Can cast Detect Magic at will, and get a bonus to identify magic or decipher writing on magic.
- Whisper Elf: Finely tuned hearing lets you Seek for invisible creatures in a larger area than normal, and with a bonus if they're within the normal area.
- Woodland Elf: Can climb faster in woodlands and has an easier time finding cover in woodlands terrain.
I really like this way of doing ancestries. The effect is that "elf" is a very wide umbrella, but it's still fairly distinct from "dwarf". And for outlier cases, there's a general feat you can take that unlocks another ancestry's feats for you, as long as those feats aren't based on that ancestry's physiology (as determined by the GM). For example, an elf with Adopted Ancestry (Orc) couldn't take the Tusks feat, because elves don't have tusks.
- Ancestral Longevity (requires 100+ years of age): Each day you can choose a skill to treat as Trained, as you recall skills you once learned but that now has mostly atrophied.
- Elven Lore: You become trained in Arcana, Nature, and Elf Lore.
- Elven Weapon Familiarity: You become trained in traditional elf weapons.
- Forlorn: Save bonus against emotion effects.
- Nimble Elf: +5 ft Speed.
- Otherworldly Magic: Learn an arcane cantrip you can cast at will.
- Unwavering Mien: Reduce the duration of Mental spells by 1 round, and gain a save bonus against sleep effects.
I don't know. I think my gnome character has gotten lots of mileage out of having Scent (letting him auto-detect nearby invisible creatures), being able to talk to burrowing animals (great for investigation), knowing zillions of languages (which combos well with being very good at Diplomacy), and getting an additional maxed-out Lore skill while also boosting the Lore skill I got from my background. The goblin alchemist in the party has done well with her fire resistance, dogslicer proficiency, ability to ride wolves and goblin dogs (which eventually lead to getting one as an animal companion via the Cavalier dedication), and most recently climbing speed. I know the two characters certainly feel very different from one another, and not just because I'm a sorcerer and she's an alchemist.@Staffan and @Dragonsbane
I feel Pathfinder 2 does well to let the player choose the race traits.
My impression is, Pathfinder makes the differences minor ribbons. I prefer the way 5e feats allow substantial design space for differences.
The difference between elves can be massive. Some even have wings!I don't know. I think my gnome character has gotten lots of mileage out of having Scent (letting him auto-detect nearby invisible creatures), being able to talk to burrowing animals (great for investigation), knowing zillions of languages (which combos well with being very good at Diplomacy), and getting an additional maxed-out Lore skill while also boosting the Lore skill I got from my background. The goblin alchemist in the party has done well with her fire resistance, dogslicer proficiency, ability to ride wolves and goblin dogs (which eventually lead to getting one as an animal companion via the Cavalier dedication), and most recently climbing speed. I know the two characters certainly feel very different from one another, and not just because I'm a sorcerer and she's an alchemist.
Perhaps. But then why have race? Are they just stats? Or is there a culture/society behind every one?A comprehensive way to represent the D&D elf traditions is almost a build-it-yourself custom race. There can still be familiar race features among the traits to choose from. But not every elf will pick the same traits.
Perhaps. But then why have race? Are they just stats? Or is there a culture/society behind every one?
IMHO this whole choose-your-race-abilities make races seem really cheapened and similar.
That’s is a point well taken. However, if we have a race with many warriors and give str and con (dwarves) we will see it in play.I have the opposite view.
Now that players aren't fixated on choosing a race mostly for its ability bonuses (funny how bards seem to skew so heavily half-elf!) they can actually focus on the stuff that makes the race unique and interesting.
Except that biology is what makes races unique. By making ability scores selectable you remove nearly all uniqueness from races.I have the opposite view.
Now that players aren't fixated on choosing a race mostly for its ability bonuses (funny how bards seem to skew so heavily half-elf!) they can actually focus on the stuff that makes the race unique and interesting.
Except that biology is what makes races unique. By making ability scores selectable you remove nearly all uniqueness from races.