Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[SlagMortar]

There is nothing "standard" about this kind of build.

I've played with multiple people who were playing for their first time and when asked what kind of character they wanted they said something like, "I want to be able to cast some spells, but I want to be hold my own in a fight too."

There are multiple SRD + wraithstrike ways to make wraithstrike overpowered. These builds except for the the Dragon Disciple and possibly the paladin build are all perfectly viable at low levels.

Classic fighter mage: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight X

Holy fighter mage: Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight X

Classic assassin build: Rogue 5 / Assassin X - The balancing factors of sneak attack are low base attack from rogue, low hitpoints from rogue, and low AC. Wraithstrike + combat expertise negate two of these factors while having virtually no opportunity cost to the assassin. They will still be just as good at the rogue/assassin role as if they did not take wraithstrike.

Barbarian 4 / Ranger 1 / Assassin 4 / Barbarian X - With only 14 intelligence and 4 levels of assassin, you get 2 wraithstrikes per day. Grab some pearls of power for 2nd level spells at a cost of 4000 gp and you can wraithstrike as often as you need it. I doubt you will need more than two per combat. This build looses only a couple hitpoints (average 5 through assassin 4) compared to a straight fighter and only looses 1 point of base attack bonus. This one could instead stay assassin and get greater invisibility.

Barbarian 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Dragon Disciple X - Dragon Disciple helps you get some hit points back and provides more 2nd level slots. At Barbarian 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Dragon Disciple 2 you can already cast 5 second level spells without any bonus from charisma.

 

[IanB]

I can call the sky green all day...it will still be blue. You fiating over the issue that this is not a standard build doesn't make it a standard build. I mentioned this in the other thread on this topic, and got the same kinds of responses. But really, I think if you took a poll of real games, as opposed to rules monkeys who hang out in the rules forum of EnWorld looking to optimize builds and reading about optimized builds, I strongly believe you will not find that this sort of build is in any way typical or standard.

Not standard? We're talking about a character that doesn't require anything that can be found outside the PHB and DMG, except wraithstrike. Fighter/Magic-Users have been in the game since time immemorial. They're one of the most iconic "multiclasses" in the entire history of D&D.

I think *any* character that takes one of the prestige classes from the DMG, and touches nothing non-core, has to be considered pretty darn standard.

 

[Mistwell]

I've played with multiple people who were playing for their first time and when asked what kind of character they wanted they said something like, "I want to be able to cast some spells, but I want to be hold my own in a fight too."

That's called a Bard, Ranger, Paladin, or Cleric.

That's not typically a 10th level fighter/sorceror maxed for melee fighting.

Not standard? We're talking about a character that doesn't require anything that can be found outside the PHB and DMG, except wraithstrike. Fighter/Magic-Users have been in the game since time immemorial. They're one of the most iconic "multiclasses" in the entire history of D&D.

I think *any* character that takes one of the prestige classes from the DMG, and touches nothing non-core, has to be considered pretty darn standard.

If it were just a fighter/sorceror not maxed for any one thing, but well balanced, wraithstrike wouldn't be broken with it.

It's not JUST a fighter/mage. It's a fighter mage build for melee, with everything focused on melee, and even the spells being focused on adding to just the melee combat. That is not typical from my experience.

If either of those is not true, as I predict is the case for at least 90% of games (and I know is true for 100% of games in anecdotal evidence that I've encountered except Mistwell's), then be VERY CAREFUL about allowing Wraithstrike in your game. It can and quite probably will be so broken as to ruin the fun of the game, which is a level of broken usually reserved for crazy WotC Optimisation Forum builds, with just one little level 2 spell and a bog-standard gish.

I don't know what to say at this point. I get that we disagree on this issue. What more can be said? Did you want me to say that your experience with the game is more valid than mine? You think most games are like your experience, and I think most games are like mine, and neither of us can know who is right. Which is why my position is just try the spell out and give it a fair shake - use it for several games, in several senarios, and see how it goes. If you are right, then folks will eliminate it. If I am right, they will not ban it.

I saw earlier some people advocating that people should not even try this spell out, or that they tried it for one game in one senario and concluded from that small sample that it was very broken. That's really all I am arguing against - I don't think you can give a rule a fair shake just by such a small sample, and people should give it a fair try before dismissing it. There is nothing inherantly bad about a spell that makes melee attacks touch attacks. It's only with experience that you can find out if it actually doesn't work out well. People should give it a fair try, and decide for themselves.

 

[Seeten]

Wraithstrike is clearly abusable. I think Scorching Ray is also clearly abusable.

Some combos, as many Magic players will tell you are bad. Some combos can win games, and still be bad. Some combos are good. Some combos are BROKEN, and all decks should be built around them, until they are banned.

The above 2 are clearly abusable combos. I submit that Scorching Ray is in the "Some combos are good" field, where if you pour a ton of resources into it, it makes a very potent engine of destruction, but it isnt BROKEN.

Wraithstrike, as written, seems to be busted wide open, in a combo winter type way. Sometimes the problem is the enablers. Sometimes the problem is the centrepiece of the combo. Wraithstrike should either forbid Power Attack, or, it should be one attack only. Both is clearly too much, and nobody is willing to ban Power Attack...or at least, not many.

 

[Victim]

It's not JUST a fighter/mage. It's a fighter mage build for melee, with everything focused on melee, and even the spells being focused on adding to just the melee combat. That is not typical from my experience.

Err, what else do fighter mages do? Using the mage side to buff the fighter side is the only reason to be a fighter mage. Many clerics also operate in the self-supporting fighter role.

 

[Mistwell]

Err, what else do fighter mages do? Using the mage side to buff the fighter side is the only reason to be a fighter mage.

I disagree. There are lots of reasons to be a fighter mage, not just one.

From my experience, it's because people want to do a little of everything (sort of like a bard, but without all that music stuff). Having better hit points, a better base attack bonus, different skill selection, the ability to use armor and weapons when the situation calls for it, more feats, all while being able to have a balanced choice of utility spells and buff spells and offense spells and defense spells, is an appealing concept to many people I think.

When you read a fantasy book about a fighter-mage, more often it models what I just wrote, than a melee combatant character who uses spells to make that melee combat work even better. Movies and shows that portray such characters also often follow that "can fight, can do magic, neither is the focus" pattern as well. I think it's a more typical concept in fact than this idea of a melee fighter who has some spellcaster levels to make the melee fighting work better.

I think this is a symptom of gaming the system so often, that people forget that a lot of people just play the game without all that concern over how to piece different rules from different rule books together to get a particular rules-focused type of character out of it. If you've gotten to the point where you can type with a straight face "the only reason to be a X", I think you are experiencing a failure of imagination.

 

[Iku Rex]

Here are a couple of monsters with wraithstrike. Now I know monsters like this tend to run at the first sign of melee with an arcane caster or a lightly armored character, but just in case you don't have one in the party to chase it away, let's see what they can do...

Adult Green Dragon, CR 13, casts as 5th level sorc.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#greenDragon

Dragon has Power Attack and Multiattack. (Both common dragon feats.)

See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm for dragon attacks.
Power Attack could be adjusted to fit the opponent (max against other dragon, less against unarmored humanoid in kung-fu stance), but I went with +/- 15 as a compromise.

Attack			1	2	3	4	5
Attack Bonus		11	9	9	9	0
Damage Bonus		23	38	38	27	0
Avg weapon damage	9	14	9	7	0
Bonus dam		0	0	0	0	0
Min. Crit. Roll		20	20	20	20	0
Critical Multiplier	2	2	2	2	0

(Attack 2 and 3 are combined into one attack with double damage. Shouldn't matter in this context.)

6	31,92	51,87	46,88	33,92	0,00	164,59
7	31,92	51,87	46,88	33,92	0,00	164,59
8	31,92	51,87	46,88	33,92	0,00	164,59
9	31,92	51,87	46,88	33,92	0,00	164,59
10	31,92	51,87	46,88	33,92	0,00	164,59
11	31,92	51,87	46,88	33,92	0,00	164,59
12	31,92	49,14	44,42	32,13	0,00	157,61
13	31,92	46,41	41,95	30,35	0,00	150,62
14	30,24	43,68	39,48	28,56	0,00	141,96
15	28,56	40,95	37,01	26,78	0,00	133,30
16	26,88	38,22	34,55	24,99	0,00	124,64
17	25,20	35,49	32,08	23,21	0,00	115,97
18	23,52	32,76	29,61	21,42	0,00	107,31
19	21,84	30,03	27,14	19,64	0,00	98,65
20	20,16	27,30	24,68	17,85	0,00	89,99
21	18,48	24,57	22,21	16,07	0,00	81,32
22	16,80	21,84	19,74	14,28	0,00	72,66
23	15,12	19,11	17,27	12,50	0,00	64,00
24	13,44	16,38	14,81	10,71	0,00	55,34
25	11,76	13,65	12,34	8,93	0,00	46,67
26	10,08	10,92	9,87	7,14	0,00	38,01
27	8,40	8,19	7,40	5,36	0,00	29,35
28	6,72	5,46	4,94	3,57	0,00	20,69
29	5,04	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	12,02
30	3,36	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	10,34
31	1,68	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	8,66
32	1,68	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	8,66
33	1,68	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	8,66
34	1,68	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	8,66
35	1,68	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	8,66
36	1,68	2,73	2,47	1,79	0,00	8,66

No power attack at all:

6	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
7	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
8	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
9	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
10	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
11	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
12	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
13	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
14	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
15	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
16	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
17	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
18	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
19	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
20	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
21	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
22	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
23	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
24	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
25	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
26	16,96	21,95	16,96	18,95	0,00	74,81
27	16,96	20,79	16,07	17,96	0,00	71,77
28	16,96	19,64	15,17	16,96	0,00	68,72
29	16,07	18,48	14,28	15,96	0,00	64,79
30	15,17	17,33	13,39	14,96	0,00	60,85
31	14,28	16,17	12,50	13,97	0,00	56,91
32	13,39	15,02	11,60	12,97	0,00	52,97
33	12,50	13,86	10,71	11,97	0,00	49,04
34	11,60	12,71	9,82	10,97	0,00	45,10
35	10,71	11,55	8,93	9,98	0,00	41,16
36	9,82	10,40	8,03	8,98	0,00	37,22

What does it take to kill a PC? DMG NPCs aren't as powerful as PCs of their level, but might provide some guidelines. The sample CR 15 (2 more than the dragon) NPC fighter has AC 28, touch 12, and 132 HPs. Checking the table we find that a dragon with wraithstrike can, and probably will, kill him in a single round. So much for the meatshield... Wraithstrike added 158-69= 89 damage, more than doubling the dragon's already impressive attacks.

The CR 15 monk has AC 25, touch 21, and 86 hit points. With wraithstrike and PA 15 he takes an average of 81 hit points. Yay! He may live! Of course, if the dragon adapts his PA to the target, say -10, the monk's a gonner (avg 102 damage).

New example: Cloud Giant Sorcerer 4 - CR 13. (11+2, nonassociated levels)
(According to the MM there should be one of these guys or a cleric with a family of giants.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#cloudGiant

Power Attack for 10:

Attack		1	2	3	4	5
Attack Bonus	14	9	5	0	0
Damage Bonus	38	38	38	0	0
Avg weapon dam	14	14	14	0	0
Bonus dam	0	0	0	0	0
Min. Crit. Roll	20	20	20	0	0
Critical Mult	2	2	2	0	0

AC	1	2	3	4	5	Total
6	51,87	51,87	51,87	0,00	0,00	155,61
7	51,87	51,87	51,87	0,00	0,00	155,61
8	51,87	51,87	49,14	0,00	0,00	152,88
9	51,87	51,87	46,41	0,00	0,00	150,15
10	51,87	51,87	43,68	0,00	0,00	147,42
11	51,87	51,87	40,95	0,00	0,00	144,69
12	51,87	49,14	38,22	0,00	0,00	139,23
13	51,87	46,41	35,49	0,00	0,00	133,77
14	51,87	43,68	32,76	0,00	0,00	128,31
15	51,87	40,95	30,03	0,00	0,00	122,85
16	51,87	38,22	27,30	0,00	0,00	117,39
17	49,14	35,49	24,57	0,00	0,00	109,20
18	46,41	32,76	21,84	0,00	0,00	101,01
19	43,68	30,03	19,11	0,00	0,00	92,82
20	40,95	27,30	16,38	0,00	0,00	84,63
21	38,22	24,57	13,65	0,00	0,00	76,44
22	35,49	21,84	10,92	0,00	0,00	68,25
23	32,76	19,11	8,19	0,00	0,00	60,06
24	30,03	16,38	5,46	0,00	0,00	51,87
25	27,30	13,65	2,73	0,00	0,00	43,68
26	24,57	10,92	2,73	0,00	0,00	38,22
27	21,84	8,19	2,73	0,00	0,00	32,76
28	19,11	5,46	2,73	0,00	0,00	27,30
29	16,38	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	21,84
30	13,65	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	19,11
31	10,92	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	16,38
32	8,19	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	13,65
33	5,46	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	10,92
34	2,73	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	8,19
35	2,73	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	8,19
36	2,73	2,73	2,73	0,00	0,00	8,19

No power attack:

AC						Total
6	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
7	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
8	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
9	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
10	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
11	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
12	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
13	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
14	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
15	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
16	31,92	31,92	31,92	0,00	0,00	95,76
17	31,92	31,92	30,24	0,00	0,00	94,08
18	31,92	31,92	28,56	0,00	0,00	92,40
19	31,92	31,92	26,88	0,00	0,00	90,72
20	31,92	31,92	25,20	0,00	0,00	89,04
21	31,92	31,92	23,52	0,00	0,00	87,36
22	31,92	30,24	21,84	0,00	0,00	84,00
23	31,92	28,56	20,16	0,00	0,00	80,64
24	31,92	26,88	18,48	0,00	0,00	77,28
25	31,92	25,20	16,80	0,00	0,00	73,92
26	31,92	23,52	15,12	0,00	0,00	70,56
27	30,24	21,84	13,44	0,00	0,00	65,52
28	28,56	20,16	11,76	0,00	0,00	60,48
29	26,88	18,48	10,08	0,00	0,00	55,44
30	25,20	16,80	8,40	0,00	0,00	50,40
31	23,52	15,12	6,72	0,00	0,00	45,36
32	21,84	13,44	5,04	0,00	0,00	40,32
33	20,16	11,76	3,36	0,00	0,00	35,28
34	18,48	10,08	1,68	0,00	0,00	30,24
35	16,80	8,40	1,68	0,00	0,00	26,88
36	15,12	6,72	1,68	0,00	0,00	23,52

Ok, using the same characters as with the dragon, we find the fighter once again bites the dust in one round, as the giant deals 139 damage on average. (Improvement: 79 damage.) The monk once again survives, but I suspect he's dependant on a favorable Power Attack this time too.

Some fiends with wizard or sorcerer levels could provide more test subjects, but I think the trend is obvious. Monsters with wraithstrike are TPKs waiting to happen.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And heck, your dragon didn't even have Arcane Strike (another perennial favourite Dragon feat)

 

[Seeten]

I would add wraithstrike to all serious melee monsters with spell powers, if a PC was abusing this.

Sounds like a disjunction level tactical nuke, though, "If you dont use it, I wont" situation waiting to happen

 

[Iku Rex]

I can call the sky green all day...it will still be blue. You fiating over the issue that this is not a standard build doesn't make it a standard build. I mentioned this in the other thread on this topic, and got the same kinds of responses. But really, I think if you took a poll of real games, as opposed to rules monkeys who hang out in the rules forum of EnWorld looking to optimize builds and reading about optimized builds, I strongly believe you will not find that this sort of build is in any way typical or standard.

You wanted testimonies form people who'd seen wraithstrike in play - you got it.

You wanted builds - you got it.

Then you wanted "actual builds" and "real numbers". You casually dismissed most supplements as irrelevant to a balance discussion, even the Spell Compendium, where wraithstrike can most recently be found. So I made an "actual build" (two, actually), with "real numbers". I limited myself to what you claimed was "typical". I went out of my way to ensure that the character in the OP was not some paper tiger who's only chance in combat was to use wraithstrike.

You promptly accused me of having "[built] around [the] spell". You were corrected.

Now you've fallen back on claiming it's a "nonstandard build". Even though the basic classes are just the example NPC from Complete Mage with paladin/sorcerer rather than fighter/wizard, and a level of spellsword tacked on.

There's no reasoning with you. I give up trying to convince you with evidence.