Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[shilsen]

There's no reasoning with you. I give up trying to convince you with evidence.

I've been following these threads and have been quite amused at the effort people are putting forth to persuade RigaMortus2 and Mistwell that Wraithstrike is overpowered.

Whether you agree with them or not, why does the opinion of some random people on the internet matter?

 

[Seeten]

I've been following these threads and have been quite amused at the effort people are putting forth to persuade RigaMortus2 and Mistwell that Wraithstrike is overpowered.

Whether you agree with them or not, why does the opinion of some random people on the internet matter?

If anyone disagrees with you on the internet, shil, than you are not RIGHT. You might be "right" but you are not RIGHT.

unfriendly analogy removed - plane sailing

 

[Iku Rex]

Whether you agree with them or not, why does the opinion of some random people on the internet matter?

“We find comfort among those who agree with us -- growth among those who don't.”

I don't come here to to be comforted or to get some perverse kick out of announcing my holy and inviolate opinion to the unwashed masses. I suffer from the belief that an objective reality exists, and that reasonable people can agree on what it is.

I know Mistwell is usually a level-headed, intelligent fellow, and RigaMortus2 doesn't strike me as severely retarded either. If I am right, I should be able to change their minds. If they are right they should be able to change mine. At the very least we should be able to determine why we arrive at different conclusions. Sadly, that's not happening.

 

[shilsen]

I suffer from the belief that an objective reality exists, and that reasonable people can agree on what it is.

You, my friend, have significantly more faith in the human species than I do.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

I forced myself in my games to use the Extra Spell (Wraithstrike) feat when I play a fighter/caster, to balance the use of the spell. But Sakkratar's triple strike in my mind is more broken than Wraithstrike. Whether you think it is overpowered or not, as either a PC or a DM, you can balance it in your game. Giving the enemy the spell really would even the odds.

 

[Mistwell]

“We find comfort among those who agree with us -- growth among those who don't.”

I don't come here to to be comforted or to get some perverse kick out of announcing my holy and inviolate opinion to the unwashed masses. I suffer from the belief that an objective reality exists, and that reasonable people can agree on what it is.

I know Mistwell is usually a level-headed, intelligent fellow, and RigaMortus2 doesn't strike me as severely retarded either. If I am right, I should be able to change their minds. If they are right they should be able to change mine. At the very least we should be able to determine why we arrive at different conclusions. Sadly, that's not happening.

I've tried to explain it. I've said my views are based on my experience with the spell, and games I have seen. Yours is as well.

My position is that people should try the spell out, over a fair period of time and variety of situations, and see what conclusion they draw from that experience. Yours seems to be "it's objectively broken, and people shouldn't bother trying it". And yet, you have two people here who have tried it and not found it broken. So, it's not objectively broken, just subjectively broken for some people.

You trying to persuade me that, my experience with the spell notwithstanding, theoretically it seems broke when placed in specific contexts on paper which really are (despite your protest to the contrary) meant FOR that kind of spell, isn't really addressing the issue I am getting it. I admitted long ago that the spell can be broken given the right circumstances. All I am saying is that, given the right circumstances, it is also perfectly fine, and that people should try it for themselves in a fair way before tossing it out of their games.

But instead of addressing the issue of why you and others think it should never even be tried in games, you guys seem to keep focusing on specific situations which I think you know full well in advance are tailor made to focus on a spell like that, at higher levels only, which are not typical builds or encounters for an average party in an average game. And then the protest comes as to why it's not tailor made for that, even though it's a spellcaster build with all melee-oriented feats and equipment.

I say let this issue drop already. If you have not gotten my point, and I have not gotten yours, by this long a period of time, then it probably won't happen. Reasonable minds can in fact differ on subjective issues, and often do. It doesn't make one of us absolutely wrong or right. There is a certain art to this game, and everyone's games are different. If you are looking for objective black and white answers in a question of art, you will look forever.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I've tried to explain it. I've said my views are based on my experience with the spell, and games I have seen. Yours is as well.

My position is that people should try the spell out, over a fair period of time and variety of situations, and see what conclusion they draw from that experience. Yours seems to be "it's objectively broken, and people shouldn't bother trying it". And yet, you have two people here who have tried it and not found it broken. So, it's not objectively broken, just subjectively broken for some people.

You trying to persuade me that, my experience with the spell notwithstanding, theoretically it seems broke when placed in specific contexts on paper which really are (despite your protest to the contrary) meant FOR that kind of spell, isn't really addressing the issue I am getting it. I admitted long ago that the spell can be broken given the right circumstances. All I am saying is that, given the right circumstances, it is also perfectly fine, and that people should try it for themselves in a fair way before tossing it out of their games.

But instead of addressing the issue of why you and others think it should never even be tried in games, you guys seem to keep focusing on specific situations which I think you know full well in advance are tailor made to focus on a spell like that, at higher levels only, which are not typical builds or encounters for an average party in an average game. And then the protest comes as to why it's not tailor made for that, even though it's a spellcaster build with all melee-oriented feats and equipment.

I say let this issue drop already. If you have not gotten my point, and I have not gotten yours, by this long a period of time, then it probably won't happen. Reasonable minds can in fact differ on subjective issues, and often do. It doesn't make one of us absolutely wrong or right. There is a certain art to this game, and everyone's games are different. If you are looking for objective black and white answers in a question of art, you will look forever.

I started the other thread mainly after a long talk with one of our groups DM. I have a Duskblade in play, after having seen many references to wraithstrike I became convinced that this would be ideal for my character. Over time, I saw several fighter/mage builds and began working on characters.

In the hands of a Duskblade, this spell is devasting against NPC's because the class has full base attack. Fighter mage builds could take advantage almost as well but also having access to up to 9th level spells. With arcane strike, they can do better than my duskblade at the higher level from 15-20.

You state that these builds are uncommon. On this we will have to disagree. I have come to the conclusion that this spell in it's current version should be banned. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't like some form of this spell. Both lists were to discuss whether this spell is properly at the appropriate level. As a 2nd level spell, it is too good for those who take it.

You did request builds that BE provided. For these builds, the spell is rediculasly overpowered. Now, the real problem is the old MAD. Mutual assured destruction. If your country has nuclear weapons, then mine will want them. Sooner or later, they will get used. This spell is very mush like a nuclear weapon. It is devestating when used. If used by NPC's against the party, a TPK is much more likely than just about any other situation that I've seen.

Since you think that this spell from my take is a problem, could you tell us why it isn't without using the examples we have provided. Convince why you are right please.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The Wraith's classic trick is to spring attack from walls and thus avoid counter-attacks. It's actually surprisingly lethal vs. parties if they are not prepared. But, corner cases are what I am trying to avoid.


By the way, my objection to Wraithstrike as a second level spell (which is why I am giving you a hard time with builds) is that it is too easy to abuse with syngery. I completely agree that a build designed to maximize synergy with Wraithstrike will be brutal. I don't know if they are overpowered just because what they are compared to can get pretty nasty as well with the amount of material.

But I always saw the spell as an enabler rather than a problem in and of itself.

The synergy you're talking about all comes built in with any arcane caster build that would actually dream of intentionally being in melee combat in a million years. Take away wraithstrike and you would still build your arcane fighter in exactly the same way.

The best explanation of that is that the spell itself is broken rather than that it facilitates other brokenness. A similar hypothetical example to demonstrate the point: suppose we made a feat that gave fighters with weapon specialization 8 for 1 Power Attack when wielding a two-handed weapon. You wouldn't need to design a build to have maximum synergy with that feat in order for it to be completely broken. All you would need to do is take the standard builds you have for a two handed weapon wielding fighter and drop that feat into them. Like in the wraithstrike example, the synergy would be built into the user base.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

FWIW, I think my character who this post describes exactly was one of the very few Living Greyhawk characters to make it from character creation to level 18 without ever dying. It's a lot more survivable than you think.

Sure. But both, with arcane strike, power attack, a high strength, gold spent mostly on melee fighting, and focus on BAB and HPs and AC but still getting mid-level spells and making it to level 10 with that kind of build without dying? Naw...not standard. Probably quite rare actually.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Just a quick, general reminder to everyone - remember to stay cool and polite, because we're friends discussing a game we love, right?

Thanks!