Wraithstrike balance evaluation examples

[wildstarsreach]

The argument now involves three threads, over 20 pages of back and forth debate. The explanation for what you just asked is in at least two of those threads. At the point where we are going around in circles this many times, is it really useful anymore?

To summarize, some of us were arguing that the spell should be evaluated for your average spell caster. As to why that would be a fair criteria, read elsewhere. I really can't keep going around and around like this.

Mistwell,

I started the previous thread based on if wraithstrike was the wrong level. The problem stems that for the focused fighter/mage, if they have power attack that their damage becomes excessive. You seem to side step the issue that most are talking about. You want to change the away from what was started in that wraithstrike is though as a problem. With so many ways to abuse this with builds, take wraithstrike away and they aren't a problem. Take away power attack but leave wraithstrike and you still have a problem. Just not to the extent that the two together are.

Wraithstrikes ability to bypass DR still makes this a still a problem when compared to other melee combatants. Power attack exarcebates the problem, it is not a problem in and of itself.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

Great.

Right.. so working with that, trying to built a straight up full arcane caster who is demonstrably better, to show that while Wraithstrike is a hardcore tactic, 12th level characters do hardcore things. Not sure what prestige class to go for though - entry requirements are pretty free and easy, because you've got lots of feats.

Then I reliased that was a waste of time. Before you condemn this as overpowered, exactly what does this do that a wizard with A) True strike, B) Shivering touch and C) a rod of lesser maximise doesn't? Whats more, he can do it three times per day, and still have all his 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells left?

And that wizard is a full caster to boot? He can planar bind efreets and get all the non combat wishes he wants?

Sure it's a hardcore trick, once per day. The rest of the time, you don't seem quite so hot compared to a wizard or a cleric?

 

[Mistwell]

Y'all are just repeating prior posts at this point.

My point is that we have debated this into the ground. I advocate that people should try it in their own games, in a fair way, and see how they feel about it then. Some of you disagree and think it is broken in theory on paper, and that is good enough to ban it. I see your point, and I think your viewpoint is reasonable, I just disagree with it.

That's really it for me. End of that part of the discussion, unless someone has something new to say that has not been said in any of these three threads this month. Simply restating prior arguments isn't very helpful from where I am sitting.

I figured the power attack discussion was at least new, even if not much on topic anymore. If anyone wants to continue that part, it left off with a question as to what is your basic power-attacking fighter at level 6 going to look like, as far as feats and preferred equipment and tactics. Anyone?

 

[SlagMortar]

Then I reliased that was a waste of time. Before you condemn this as overpowered, exactly what does this do that a wizard with A) True strike, B) Shivering touch and C) a rod of lesser maximise doesn't? Whats more, he can do it three times per day, and still have all his 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells left?

First, I would say that shivering touch is also overpowered. I've seen plenty of other people that would agree.

That said, I would like to see the build
1. Does shivering touch have spell resistance? Wraithstrike does not. I don't know about shivering touch.
2. Check again how many times the build proposed can do its trick. It's a sorcerer and has lots of spell slots available. I think he can do it at least 3 times per day. Then he would run out of 4th level slots for arcane strike and have to use 3rd level slots instead - losing only +1 to hit and +1d4 damage.
3. What's the AC and hitpoints of the 12th level wizard you are moving into touch range? Is it AC 36 and 111 Hitpoints + 22 temporary hitpoints?
4. What are the saves? I bet your 12th level wizard does not have a +19 fortitude save.

He can planar bind efreets and get all the non combat wishes he wants?

Pun-Pun can be build at level 5. Comparing wraithstrike to other broken things does not make wraithstrike less broken. (rhetorical question) Do you think the intention of planar binding was to grant unlimited free wishes?

One other important point is that the build fulfills the role of warrior/meat shield, not primary caster. For levels 1-4 this build is a straight paladin so fulfils this role just as well as a straight paladin.
For level 5-6 this build is a little behind a straight melee class.
I'm not very familiar with Abjurant Champion so I can't say when this build pulls back ahead of the straight melee class, but by level 12 it is clearly way ahead. It can prevent any CR 13 monster from wanting to attempt melee, which I have yet to hear about from a level 12 barbarian, fighter, or any prestige class except. This build also has full access to the sor/wiz spell list for wands and scrolls. Potions of fly are hardly uncommon for melee classes. This build can use a scroll instead at only half the cost.

 

[The_Furious_Puffin]

First, I would say that shivering touch is also overpowered. I've seen plenty of other people that would agree.

That said, I would like to see the build
1. Does shivering touch have spell resistance? Wraithstrike does not. I don't know about shivering touch.
2. Check again how many times the build proposed can do its trick. It's a sorcerer and has lots of spell slots available. I think he can do it at least 3 times per day. Then he would run out of 4th level slots for arcane strike and have to use 3rd level slots instead - losing only +1 to hit and +1d4 damage.
3. What's the AC and hitpoints of the 12th level wizard you are moving into touch range? Is it AC 36 and 111 Hitpoints + 22 temporary hitpoints?
4. What are the saves? I bet your 12th level wizard does not have a +19 fortitude save.

1. No

2. Excellent - I focused on the first one! I'm sure you can dumpster dive supplmenets and really break it, but lets face it, we can all do that!

3. Well, a wizard can do that too, off the top of my head... lets say we polymoph into a grey render, cast mage armour and shield, then wear an amulet of health +2 to change his con score giving him the full awesome-o boost of the con 26... that gives me AC 31, 117 hitpoints and I didn't even look at a book! Thats the PHB all the way baby. Okay not quite as impressive as yours, but alas.

4. Probably not! However, as outlined below, a 12th level wizard can have a DC 31 save or die, so lets call it even!

Pun-Pun can be build at level 5. Comparing wraithstrike to other broken things does not make wraithstrike less broken. (rhetorical question) Do you think the intention of planar binding was to grant unlimited free wishes?

We are not discussing *intent* thats what the rules says it can actually do There are LOADS of broken things at this level, and you don't even have to try hard - lets say.. we are a druid with greenbound summoning and spam wall of thorns everywhere? This melee guy cannot even move in that sort of enviroment? We are in 'dumpster dive into suplements' mode, not Mialee from the PHB vs wraithstrike mode. I touch on this again in two paragraphs.

Anyway it's not clear at this point what the rules actually do - is it actually explained anywhere what actually happens when I pull the polymorph into a grey render then wear an amulet of health thing?

One other important point is that the build fulfills the role of warrior/meat shield, not primary caster. For levels 1-4 this build is a straight paladin so fulfils this role just as well as a straight paladin.
For level 5-6 this build is a little behind a straight melee class.
I'm not very familiar with Abjurant Champion so I can't say when this build pulls back ahead of the straight melee class, but by level 12 it is clearly way ahead. It can prevent any CR 13 monster from wanting to attempt melee, which I have yet to hear about from a level 12 barbarian, fighter, or any prestige class except. This build also has full access to the sor/wiz spell list for wands and scrolls. Potions of fly are hardly uncommon for melee classes. This build can use a scroll instead at only half the cost.

Excellent! However as I started before fighters are *rubbish* As this entire thing is cooked up by dumpster diving through expansions, the real power baseline is a divine metamagicing cleric with upteen persistant buffs, or a maxed out druid with draconic wildshape and rashemini elemental summoning, or a wizard with fully cranking save or die spells with DC whatever - not a fighter.

(For reference, I'm pretty sure Fort +19 won't even save you from a maxed out wizard at this level, say with go with an wizard incantrix, whats to stop him hitting you from two save or sucks (one heightened, one quickened) in round with DC 10 + 6 + 11 from int (20 base, 3 from levels, 5 from wishes 4 from item) + 4 from spell focuses for DC 31? Against which you have an 79.65% chance of dying even with stupidly maxed out saves.. even if you ditch the extra zing from wishes that still means it's a ~70% chance of dying. I might be slightly off because I'm not looking at books, but thats pretty close I reckon.

Lets think about that.. I do a stack of damage if I make it to close combat, vs insta ranged death?

I agree entirely wraithstrike is a powerful strategy, and if you are going to ban all the other powerful strategies (stacking nightsticks for divine metamagic, polymorph routines, being a druid, you know, whatever) then maybe it could go.

However it does bring an architype that normally sucks right up there with the insane province normally only inhabited by druids, clerics and wizards. I don;t think that is bad!

 

[PallidPatience]

w00t! Fighter + Wizard + Power Attack = Dumpster Diving into supplements!

 

[two]

You are not debating...

Y'all are just repeating prior posts at this point.

My point is that we have debated this into the ground. I advocate that people should try it in their own games, in a fair way, and see how they feel about it then. Some of you disagree and think it is broken in theory on paper, and that is good enough to ban it. I see your point, and I think your viewpoint is reasonable, I just disagree with it.

That's really it for me. End of that part of the discussion, unless someone has something new to say that has not been said in any of these three threads this month. Simply restating prior arguments isn't very helpful from where I am sitting.

I figured the power attack discussion was at least new, even if not much on topic anymore. If anyone wants to continue that part, it left off with a question as to what is your basic power-attacking fighter at level 6 going to look like, as far as feats and preferred equipment and tactics. Anyone?

Actually, you are simply avoiding anything and everything that does not line up with your assumption that WS is fine.

People HAVE tried WS in their games. They posted their experiences. The spell was so powerful it was banned. To these examples you said... well it is not WS it is polymorph... it is power attack... is is the EK build...

So you ignored the real life examples after asking for and getting them.

You demanded builds either simple or complex and were given them, plus evidence it was "broken on paper." You see this as possibly useful but not enough to convince.

And you refuse to address even the most simple builds: EK + Power attack + WS or Wiz + polymorph + WS.

You have not actually "debated" anything.

"Debate" means you look at and engage with the other sides' argument.

You are obviously not going to change your opinion, regardless of evidence or other people's experiences.

You are not arguing a point, you are stating one and restating it as nauseum.

I came to the debate thinking WS was likely overpowered. I looked at the numbers and read about people's experiences with it. I then was convinced it was overpowered. I read your assertions that is was not and had nothing to cling to. You think it is not because... you think it is not? Because it is ok in your special campaign? Because polymorph or power attack or arcane strike are... kooky power munchkin builds or something?

I want to engage with your argument. I really do. It is just terribly weak, as it consists solely of assertion. That is it. No counterbuilds of other powerful 2nd level spells. I mean, throw me a bone?

Oh, you do attempt to shift the debate:

"To summarize, some of us were arguing that the spell should be evaluated for your average spell caster. As to why that would be a fair criteria, read elsewhere. I really can't keep going around and around like this."

Meaning, only look at WS and your average caster, ie not a EK build. This is manifestly absurd. Create a 1st level spell that doubles melee damage for 1 round/level and is a immediate spell. Also all crits are auto-confirmed and you get +4 to hit. For your average wiz this is "balanced" because they suck in melee even with this spell. For a EK or any wiz melee build it is nutsoid powerful.

To state the obvious: IF A SPELL IS TOO POWERFUL FOR THE PC'S IT IS INTENDED FOR, IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT IT IS BALANCED FOR OTHER TYPES OF CASTERS WHO CAN'T USE IT EFFECTIVELY.

A spell is balanced against all typical builds or it is not. And to claim EK - in the PH for goodness sake - is not a standard build is crazy.

 

[IanB]

The argument now involves three threads, over 20 pages of back and forth debate. The explanation for what you just asked is in at least two of those threads. At the point where we are going around in circles this many times, is it really useful anymore?

To summarize, some of us were arguing that the spell should be evaluated for your average spell caster. As to why that would be a fair criteria, read elsewhere. I really can't keep going around and around like this.

I've read the threads, and I don't see an answer to my question that makes any sense to me at all.

You could perhaps help me understand your point by explaining how you would use this stance to evaluate golem strike or grave strike, though. A concrete example that avoids the problem of actually talking directly about wraithstrike, but involves spells that were obviously designed for characters other than single classed wizards.

 

[wildstarsreach]

The argument now involves three threads, over 20 pages of back and forth debate. The explanation for what you just asked is in at least two of those threads. At the point where we are going around in circles this many times, is it really useful anymore?

To summarize, some of us were arguing that the spell should be evaluated for your average spell caster. As to why that would be a fair criteria, read elsewhere. I really can't keep going around and around like this.

You can't evaluate for the standard caster, the problems go with the fighting type of caster. No self respecting wizard is going to want to get into melee combat.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Don't ya just love when you compare a combo to WS that is just as effective, and then the rebuttal is "well that combo is broke too"?