Wrong facts about D&D3 combat?

[Bullgrit]

It sounds like you and your players are the S.W.A.T. team of D&D-playing, whereas the folks I usually game with are more along the lines of the Police Academy characters.

LOL! My fellow Players would laugh their heads off at the suggestion that we are like a SWAT team. Your guys maybe Police Academy characters, I think my guys are Keystone Kops.

That's just it. This is what amazes me. We're not doing anything special to be "fast." I don't even think of us as moving fast through our combats. What I think is the case, actually, is that many of you who say it takes you 20 minutes a round, you're just going off feel-judgement. It "feels" like you're waiting 20 minutes for your turn to come around, but really it's just 5 minutes.

Or maybe there's a whole lot of non-game chatter and stuff going on -- because it's fun and you like it more than running the game -- that wastes a big chunk of time. I've played sessions where "planning" for a big encounter took 2 hours, and the actual battle took 35 minutes. We talked about computer games, TV shows, movies, women, etc., and that caused what could have been a 10 minute talk into an all night discussion. If you/we are having fun doing that, great. But don't then complain that the *game* takes too long.

Or maybe some folks really are just that crazy sloppy about their stuff. I used to play with a group who was unbelievably inefficient -- 7 people talking out the placement of a fireball for 15 minutes on the sorcerer's turn. But that's not the game's fault, that's the Players' choice.

Bullgrit

 

[Ourph]

What I think is the case, actually, is that many of you who say it takes you 20 minutes a round, you're just going off feel-judgement. It "feels" like you're waiting 20 minutes for your turn to come around, but really it's just 5 minutes.

I assure you I've been as careful in my observations as you claim to have been in yours and our experiences do differ. Oh sure, there were plenty of times when we would have 3-5 minute rounds, but that was a minimum, not an average. There were also plenty of times where we would take an hour to resolve a 3-4 round combat. For us, that kind of thing started as early as 5th or 6th level when spells like Dispel Magic and the various stat buffs started getting thrown around a lot.

 

[Festivus]

Just a side note: We have found that carrying around a pack of inexpensive index cards really helps the group buff / dispel situation.

Write the buff name, benefit and type (e.g. luck bonus), spell and caster level. Now dispels are a breeze.

 

[malraux]

I assure you I've been as careful in my observations as you claim to have been in yours and our experiences do differ. Oh sure, there were plenty of times when we would have 3-5 minute rounds, but that was a minimum, not an average. There were also plenty of times where we would take an hour to resolve a 3-4 round combat. For us, that kind of thing started as early as 5th or 6th level when spells like Dispel Magic and the various stat buffs started getting thrown around a lot.

In general, that was my experience as well. Straight damage dealing spells and attacks generally went pretty quick. But once buffs/debuffs and non-damaging effects entered the game, everything started taking a lot longer. I think if groups want to have fast combat, its possible, but it means limiting your options.

 

[Dragonblade]

Heh, our 3e combats were usually about 10 to 15 minutes just for ONE player's turn!

Thats why I'm inclined to agree with Cadfan.

At low levels such as 1-5, combat can go pretty quickly since each character only has one attack and buff stacks aren't as common.

Plus characters with straight damage rolls are easy. Its when you get into higher levels with buff stacks, more complex spell mechanics, and iterative attacks going that things start to get ridiculous. Also when DMing I have to manage multiple monsters with multiple attacks often coming from different pages of the MM. So I'm flipping back and forth. Or I see a spell that a monster has and I forget exactly what it does so I have to look it up in the book and I'm holding up the whole parade.

Combat also takes time because there is a lot of on the spot number auditing. Some character will say he hits some crazy AC value, and I'll be like "ok, break that down for me by source. How do you get that number?" So everybody starts pulling out books to doublecheck their math on their buff spells and such and make sure something isn't being improperly stacked with something else.

And buffs and debuffs in the middle of combat are a mess. A fighter character has Bull Strength pre-cast on him. Then he gets Enlarged two rounds into the fight. Then he is STR drained by some kind of monster or spell. Then Bull's Strength is dispelled next round. All of that takes time to recalculate especially because those ability score changes cascade throughout the character. And thats only one ability score. Sometimes characters will gain and lose multiple buffs affecting multiple scores and bonuses every round!!!

Sure you prep stuff in advance, but that goes back to the problem with 3e prep time. I'm already spending my time building NPCs and monsters for the adventure. Now I have to pre-calculate every possible buff permutation too? Ugh!

And published adventures don't make it easier. Stat blocks are often wrong, or they don't adequately break down the buffs involved so I have re-engineer all the monster stats myself. Or the module writers just refer to a page in the monster manual. I HATE that.

 

[Remathilis]

Heh, our 3e combats were usually about 10 to 15 minutes just for ONE player's turn!

Thats why I'm inclined to agree with Cadfan.

At low levels such as 1-5, combat can go pretty quickly since each character only has one attack and buff stacks aren't as common.

Plus characters with straight damage rolls are easy. Its when you get into higher levels with buff stacks, more complex spell mechanics, and iterative attacks going that things start to get ridiculous. Also when DMing I have to manage multiple monsters with multiple attacks often coming from different pages of the MM. So I'm flipping back and forth. Or I see a spell that a monster has and I forget exactly what it does so I have to look it up in the book and I'm holding up the whole parade.

Combat also takes time because there is a lot of on the spot number auditing. Some character will say he hits some crazy AC value, and I'll be like "ok, break that down for me by source. How do you get that number?" So everybody starts pulling out books to doublecheck their math on their buff spells and such and make sure something isn't being improperly stacked with something else.

And buffs and debuffs in the middle of combat are a mess. A fighter character has Bull Strength pre-cast on him. Then he gets Enlarged two rounds into the fight. Then he is STR drained by some kind of monster or spell. Then Bull's Strength is dispelled next round. All of that takes time to recalculate especially because those ability score changes cascade throughout the character. And thats only one ability score. Sometimes characters will gain and lose multiple buffs affecting multiple scores and bonuses every round!!!

Sure you prep stuff in advance, but that goes back to the problem with 3e prep time. I'm already spending my time building NPCs and monsters for the adventure. Now I have to pre-calculate every possible buff permutation too? Ugh!

And published adventures don't make it easier. Stat blocks are often wrong, or they don't adequately break down the buffs involved so I have re-engineer all the monster stats myself. Or the module writers just refer to a page in the monster manual. I HATE that.

This man is wise. XP for him.

I made a reference to it, but the character class with the most prep/long turns in 3.X is the druid.

* He's a 9-level spellcaster with full access to his spell list. At high levels, his options are staggering. He's also more offensive-balanced than a cleric, but has plenty of strong buffs and healing too.

* He can shapechange as a primary class option; opening multiple changes to attacks, AC, ability scores, and hp.

* He has spontaneous summoning, require stat blocks for multiple monsters/animals the druid has summoned.

* He has an animal companion that, often, is a better combatant than most members of the party.

* Four Words: Augment Summoning. Natural Spell. That *thud* sound you're hearing the sound of hundreds of DMs slamming their heads into the wall at the mere mention of those feats.

* As a full caster, he also could gain access to metamagic. Quicken spell anyone?

It is possible that a high-level druid's round could take up to 20 minutes to complete, depending on his personal buffs, animal companion attacks, spells or wild-shape and summoned creatures. Each of those an on-the-fly calculation.

After you've soaked that up, we'll talk about clerics, wizards, and seven-attacks-a-round(+criticals) ranger-ginzus.

 

[Belphanior]

What kind of narration would cause such a slow down?

* * *

Player: "I hustle over to this ogre and chop him with my axe." <roll> "I get . . . 14 AC, and . . . 12 damage."
DM: "Your axe blow is absorbed by the ogre's armor."
or "Your axe cuts the ogre at the hip, making him growl in anger."

* * *

I mean, really, do you do much more narration than that? And how many seconds does it take you to say all of the above -- it takes me 10-12 seconds to read all of that between the asterisks, giving a slight pause at the ellipses.

Bullgrit

God, what I wouldn't give to make a DM I play under narrate like that. Seriously he can take well over 5 minutes to narrate a single turn of an enemy, and that's before rolling any dice and (slowly) working through the math. I am not even kidding.

On the bright side, his descriptions are excellent and we always know exactly what the surroundings are like, what our opponents look like, etc.

Now obviously this particular case is due to that individual person and not inherent to the system of 3.x, but you've never experienced high level play. 1-12 means low to middle. At the top end the stack of buffs can get crazy. One fellow player with a 17th level paladin-cleric gestalt had to contruct a multi-page excel sheet with all possible buffs listed and the total values added up for those that applied. Otherwise, a single targeted Dispel Magic on him would take easily five to ten minutes worth of rolling dice and adjusting all the math that cascaded all over his sheet.

 

[Victim]

Most of my 3.x experience had the following basic traits:

Long combats: even with experienced players, each combat could take lots of real time. Buffs, Dispels, big full attacks, many multitarget powers, etc take some time to resolve.

Few rounds: many fights took 3 rounds or less. Even notably long fights were usually less than 8 rounds. However, some fights were stretched out by heavy use of delaying tactics.

Many monsters: most encounters were against groups of monsters. The action advantage just seems to make 1 v 4 pretty lame.

So pretty conventional, with the exception that we fought several enemies at once.

 

[Dragonblade]

I made a reference to it, but the character class with the most prep/long turns in 3.X is the druid.

* He's a 9-level spellcaster with full access to his spell list. At high levels, his options are staggering. He's also more offensive-balanced than a cleric, but has plenty of strong buffs and healing too.

* He can shapechange as a primary class option; opening multiple changes to attacks, AC, ability scores, and hp.

* He has spontaneous summoning, require stat blocks for multiple monsters/animals the druid has summoned.

* He has an animal companion that, often, is a better combatant than most members of the party.

* Four Words: Augment Summoning. Natural Spell. That *thud* sound you're hearing the sound of hundreds of DMs slamming their heads into the wall at the mere mention of those feats.

* As a full caster, he also could gain access to metamagic. Quicken spell anyone?

It is possible that a high-level druid's round could take up to 20 minutes to complete, depending on his personal buffs, animal companion attacks, spells or wild-shape and summoned creatures. Each of those an on-the-fly calculation.

After you've soaked that up, we'll talk about clerics, wizards, and seven-attacks-a-round(+criticals) ranger-ginzus.

Oh heavens, yes. Agree about the druids. Especially with the shapeshift and summoned creatures and so on. A druid isn't just a character, he is a one man zoo of special attacks, actions, movement and abilities!

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

This certainly wasn't my experience at all. It is possible that it is because all of my friends were powergamers, I ran almost entirely published adventures, and we are easily distracted.

The people I know would absolutely hate knowing they forgot even +1 to hit and damage. So, they tend to readd their bonuses almost every round. They get reminded of their bonuses by the other players every round. This is a fairly average round for us:

Fighter: "Alright, I charge the enemy with full power attack..."
Cleric: "You are adding the +1 to hit from Bless, right?"
Fighter: "Yes, I am."
Wizard: "And the plus 1 to hit from Haste as well, right?"
Fighter: "Oh, right, I forgot about that one. At any rate, I Power Attack for 6, I roll a 13 on the dice...plus....umm, normally I'm plus 12. But, I am getting +1 from the bless and +1 from the haste. That's..umm...hmm....27 to hit minus the 6 for Power Attack...that's 21."
Rogue: "Don't forget the +2 for charging."
Paladin: "Yeah, it's always best to remember to charge it. You don't have to carry around cash that way."
Fighter: "Ha. Well, I probably hit without it anyways. So, I hit AC 22."
Wizard: "I actually hate using my credit card. It has way too high an interest rate."
Rogue: "That's +2 for charging, not +1."
Fighter: "I thought I added +2. I got 20 before, and then added +2 for 22."
Cleric: "No, he's right, you rolled 21 before."
Fighter: "Did I? I don't remember that. Do you remember, Paladin?"
Paladin: "...find it's much easier to use my credit card. I hate dealing with cash."
Fighter: "Hey! Did I roll 20 or 22 before charging?"
Paladin: "What? Oh...I don't remember."
Fighter: "Let me double check then. So, I rolled a 13..."

And so on.

Combats can be really swinging in terms of how long they take. Some days people are more willing to pay attention than others. Generally, encounters with multiple monsters took longer than combat against just one. It also depended entirely on how much the players were holding back. When they didn't think the combat was worth their time, many rounds would go by because the cleric would be attacking in melee and the wizard would be missing with a bow. When they went all out, enemies would die within 3 rounds as everyone in the group would pull out their best damaging spells. Of course, it still took a lot of time in real life as lots of dice would need to be rolled.